Midwestern Gray Areas | Behind the Pulpit S4E24

This week on Behind the Pulpit, the pastors reconnect after a couple weeks away, reflecting on recent travel, time at Midwestern Seminary, and a few moments from life and ministry. Book War continues as the competition tightens and the standings shift heading into another key round.

In the news segment, the discussion centers on a recent Supreme Court decision involving conversion therapy bans, raising questions about free speech, religious liberty, and the role of government in counseling practices. The conversation also touches briefly on the Artemis II mission and a tragic local shooting, considering how Christians think through both cultural developments and difficult realities.

The sermon recap covers two passages from 2 Timothy, focusing on the call to remember Jesus Christ raised from the dead and the challenge of maintaining unity within the church. The discussion explores the difference between core doctrines and gray areas, the seriousness of false teaching, and how believers can pursue truth while avoiding unnecessary division, ending with a clear exhortation toward faithfulness in both belief and conduct.

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HOLY WEEK
https://millingtonbaptist.org/holy-week-2026/
THE BRIDGE
https://millingtonbaptist.org/the-bridge-april-12th/
MEMBERSHIP CLASS
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Chapters:
0:00 Intro
3:03 Pastor Bob Travel Recap
9:14 In The News
24:36 The Great Book War
32:43 Audience Questions
44:17 Sermon Recap | 2 Timothy 2:8-13
1:02:48 Sermon Recap | 2 Timothy 2:14-19
1:21:20 Theology Sprint

Music
"Ventura"
Morgan Taylor
U76EPPNJDYZYU0Y7

Transcript

Tim 0:00

And now a very important message from the most honorable, the most learned, and unquestionably the most sharp-witted guardian of the law, Her Honor, Judge Millie Ningtonian.

Millie Ningtonian 0:12

Mm-hmm. Certainly. Well, yes, of course, Your Highness. I'll be sure to let them know straight away. Yes, you as well, sir. Take care, Bye bye. So lovely to see you again. I do have such an important announcement straight away. Um, yes. Um, the board of elders, they have requested a special business meeting. Um, it appears that the Church on the Column has a potential to acquire a continuous property, and it will require a special business meeting. Um, so do find yourself in April 21st at 7 p.m. to attend a special business meeting about acquiring this property. Um again, that will be April 21st at 7 p.m. at Millington Baptist Church. Um, for active voting members, please do come out here the conversation. It should be absolutely riveting. Please, you don't want me to be melancholy. See your ideas.

Bob 1:28

Welcome to Behind the Pulpit for April the 13th, 2026. It's a Monday. We're sitting here. Uh, I know it's been a couple weeks since we've been together. I'm joined by my illustrative colleague, Pastor Dave Henschel, over here to my left. Uh he's he's deep deep in thought. That was very blues clues. Well, oh, hello.

Tim 1:49

Hello there.

Bob 1:50

Oh, you're there.

Tim 1:51

I do I do think that this might be the third show in a row where Pastor Dave has worn this shirt. Oh, but it's not like a bad thing because we've we're starting out making fun of Pastor Dave. No, no, no, no, no. We're not I think it's just interesting that we've fallen into your shirt rotation, even though we're we're so far apart in episodes now.

Bob 2:08

Do you know that Seinfeld episode where he talks about the rotation? Like uh there's Golden Boy and there's Baby Blue. Like, is this your baby blue right here? Always coming up in the rotation? I hadn't thought much about this, but um Well, this taking it this took an interesting trip. Try something different next podcast. There's no need, it's a great shirt.

Tim 2:24

I'm just letting you know it's keep it up, man.

Bob 2:26

It's interesting. All right, and of course, Tim, we got our our uh we got Tim over there. What uh Hello I was told yesterday, Tim, that when you did the announcements, uh people wanted to know if you were always that funny. Are you always that funny?

Tim 2:41

Um I hope my wife thinks so, but um I I don't think I'd try to be funny.

Bob 2:47

We should have her on here and ask her questions about you one of these days. That can't be. He can't always be that funny. He can't, it's not possible.

Tim 2:54

I mean, I think I have some witty jokes, but I I wouldn't necessarily could categorize I don't I don't view myself as a funny person. That's not where I find my identity.

Bob 3:02

All right. Well, we're glad you're joining us today. I know it's been a few weeks. A few of you have spoken with us, and uh, you're a little disappointed. We're only doing every other week, but uh, we are committed to bringing you an action-packed show each time we are together, and we hope that that'll be uh the case today. Before we dive into some of our content, I'd like to share a couple stories about my last week. So I'm I'm glad that we didn't film last week because I wouldn't have been here anyway. I was out in Kansas City um doing a seminar out at Midwestern Seminary, and uh, Tim, there should be a picture here of me in front of Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. Beautiful campus. I enjoyed my time out there. I'm working on uh uh uh some schoolwork. Uh I was given a gift, which I thought was Did you get this at Southern? I got a Midwestern Seminary Doctoral Studies mug. No, for free? They they gave that to me for coming to my seminar, which uh I thought was uh was pretty cool right here. Uh their logo is for the church because they want to train pastors and everybody uh for church work, and so I appreciate that. I also got a fellow mug right here, which is it has a splash guard in here, which is pretty cool if you have one of these.

Tim 4:09

Um is not uh uh a sponsor, but we love fellow. Bob is officially part of the fellow fellows now.

Bob 4:16

I guess so. I didn't even know it was a thing. Just is a fellow fellow.

Tim 4:18

I'm a fellow fellow.

Bob 4:19

Well, fellow's great. Dave, are you a fellow? Not a non-fellow fellow? I don't even know what we're talking about right now.

Tim 4:25

It's the brand is it's like a coffee paraphernalia company. So they make like they they make coffee machines that are very expensive and very good. Um they make um like I have a a kettle, a fellow kettle kettle, uh, for pour overs and things like that. Um great stuff. Check it out if you're looking to spend.

Bob 4:44

It is it is it is quite good. I was not aware of what I was missing out on. Um, but the reason I bring this up, I did have to share about my my travel experience and want to see if anybody out there has experienced this as well. So um this this seminar was scheduled right the the week after Easter, so I had to be out there Monday at at uh one 1 p.m. to start. So I had to fly on Easter Sunday. I had to leave after the third service and bolt to Newark Airport. Um I got there in plenty of time, no TSA lines. No TSA and they switched me over to Terminal A, which I was pretty happy about, got through quickly. But my flight was delayed, and I had a connection down in Dulles Airport outside of DC, which I I haven't been in Dulles in years, and I didn't I forgot how big the airport was. If you've out there or you've flown through Dulles Airport, um I was concerned because I only had a I only had a uh an hour and 20 minute connection and my flight got delayed by 50 minutes. And so nowadays, you know, when you when you have the United app, they like they they're tracking you, they're telling you everything, they're giving me the update on landing and how much how much my transfer time was. So I keep I kept seeing my transfer time was 28 minutes, and I thought, surely, that's the amount of time in between my first flight and my second flight, what how much time I have to get to the gate before the I I can before I'll miss the flight. And I was concerned I was gonna miss the flight. Um I realized later that that transfer time was how long it was gonna take for me to walk from the gate I came into to the gate I I I was flying out of. And uh, Pastor Dave, because I was there an hour late, there was no way I was making that second flight, and there was no flights later that day. I was gonna have to get up at 6 a.m. the next morning, fly through Orlando, get over to Kansas City at like 11 a.m. Um So I didn't want to do that. Thankfully, God in his grace delayed my second flight by two hours, and I made it, but I still had to make that half an hour trek in between gates. I had to take a train. I was I was telling my wife, I'm calling her and saying, I cannot believe I am still walking in between these two gates. It was so ridiculously long. If you've had that experience at Dulles Airport or some other place, why don't you uh write that in the comment section right there? So that was my experience. Thankfully, by God's grace, I got out there in time, 11 p.m. out in Kansas City, made it to my seminar, and uh Kansas City is actually a pretty cool city. Um I got to see the Chiefs Stadium. You can see right here, no Patrick Mahomes or uh Taylor Swift or Travis Kelsey. No sightings, but the the stadium is pretty cool. Apparently the Jets tried to go after Patrick Mahomes. They did. Well, maybe we'll see him around here. They offered seven first round picks. I I almost bought a Patrick Mahomes bobblehead in the airport uh in the Chiefs area, which was kind of fun. Um the other thing that's Kansas City's famous for is barbecue. You have to get can I was told you have to get Kansas City barbecue, and so I went to a restaurant or two. Um and it was good. Um I saw this this shirt here uh that apparently all the all the locals out there buy their kids. Uh it says my daddy loves brisket. Um smells like brisket. Smells like brisket. I forgot what it said, but it was this green shirt. I I sent the picture to my wife and she said no. So anyway, it was a fun trip. Hopefully things were good back here. Um maybe we'll look forward to your your your uh stories from your next trip. You can believe it. I I got the turkey with the uh whatever the sauce was on top of it. Yeah, Kansas City barbecue.

Tim 8:16

So there's a whole barbecue geographically, I think is very fascinating. Um so Kansas City, I believe, it tends to be a sweeter, more molasses styled, like more emphasis on the sauce.

Bob 8:28

I did not think about it this in depth. Um please educate me.

Tim 8:31

Whereas you move like the if you move down to Carolina, their their barbecue is a little bit more mustard-based. Um and then actually, no, maybe Kansas City is more molasses-based. Um and then and then Texas, they don't do the sauce. Texas is very dry rub focused.

Dave 8:45

Is that true? Uh yeah, that's that's uh fair assessment.

Tim 8:50

I mean, you can get sauces, but in terms of the signature, they they're going for the dry rub, they're looking for that bark that they they get on their smoked meats down there. Well, anyway. Look up if you're interested in in the geography of American barbecue.

Bob 9:01

But uh Kansas City, it's not easy to get to, but it was uh it was a fun city. I recommend uh going and very very less congested than here in New Jersey. You'll you'll feel like you can stretch the legs a bit.

Tim 9:13

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Bob 9:54

All right, so uh I guess we're on to the weekly warmup, Tim. Is that what the next segment is?

Tim 9:59

Uh I believe we still have that one crossed out in our show notes. Okay, so I didn't prepare a weekly warmup.

Bob 10:04

So no weekly warmup. So so I I uh what's the next segment here that I'm missing?

Tim 10:08

I believe it's the uh the world famous.

Bob 10:11

In the news? Aye. All right, let's let's go. In the news. All right, so we've we have decided, we've made an executive decision that each week we're gonna pick a new story to dissect. One new story, and then we might give a couple honorable mentions, which I do have one or two uh to mention with those just kind of briefly. Uh but the first one This is gonna be like the book war thing.

Dave 10:35

He he's never gonna be able to stick to one story.

Bob 10:38

Well, I I sent you these two that came up that I forgot about. Uh, should I mention the honorable mentions at the beginning and then dive into the big one? Yeah, let's go to the box. He made the announcement.

Dave 10:49

Now we're already doing three.

Bob 10:52

Well, I thought we decided on an honorable one last week, and I forget what it was. I don't think we wrote it down. Anyway, my honorable mentions, of course, I I felt weird having watched the Artemis II landing on Saturday, not mentioning it, that we went back to the moon around the moon, these these uh four astronauts made that trek, and apparently we're gonna keep going back every nine or ten months until we eventually land and start a base over there. Uh, which my wife reminded me this is pretty historic. I mean, we haven't we haven't been past the moon in like 50 years. Um, so that's that's kind of a cool thing, and I I think God God creates us in his image, and we're explorers, we're creatives. Um, so exploring God's design, even if it's that far away as being on the moon, is is is pretty cool. Um so so that of course happened. If you haven't gone and seen the uh the landing, it's uh it's it's pretty wild what we're able to do. Um I did I did I was a little anxious for a moment when I saw it coming down and thought, I w are those parachutes really gonna stop that thing from coming at like 500,000 miles an hour? That must be a pretty strong parachute uh to stop them coming down. Um all right. Second honorable mention on the news story is uh a sad news story I saw that happened Saturday night down in Union. Uh the Chick-fil-A down in Union had a deadly shooting. Somebody came in, shot up Chick-fil-A in Union right in right in between 22, and uh six people were wounded and one person sadly passed away. And and the guy or whoever it was came in with a ski mask and ran away, and and we still don't know who did this. Um that's pretty close to home, and union's just 25 minutes down the road. And uh this doesn't happen a whole bunch uh close to where we live, but it is a reminder that they're we live in a broken world, that we live after the fall, that when these things happen, it's tragic, and we need to pray for these families that are impacted and that justice would be done. Um but it's it's it was it's a bit unnerving. Did you guys happen to catch that one? Any initial reactions to the union story?

Tim 13:01

Yeah, I mean it's always it's always tough. You know, we obviously we have uh we have friends in union, um, you know, church in union that kind of grown close with. Um and some of their congregants work at that Chick-fil-A. So it's uh So they do. Yeah, andy guys at Andy's Church. Andy's Church, man. They work at Chick-fil-A.

Bob 13:18

I have not been to that Chick-fil-A in a while, but I've definitely been there. That that used to be the only Chick-fil-A in town. Yeah. Um our thoughts and prayers obviously are with the the families. Goodness gracious. So that happened. Uh be praying for those families. All right. Uh main news story. So uh let me pull it up here. There was a big Supreme Court case uh that happened uh fairly recently um and uh this was a pretty big decision. We we covered this uh in our pre-discussion. The uh Supreme Court overruled a Colorado ban on uh conversion therapy, which has some broad-reaching implications for the country. Um if you don't know, and and I was I've been aware of this for a number of years. So uh a number of years ago we got connected, we uh had Mark Yarhouse, uh Christian psychologist, come here to talk with us. Um I went to a few uh seminars that he did. And at that time, this is going back to 2018, so seven, eight years ago now, he was talking about in his profession in psychology, and he was debating whether he wanted to keep his licensure up because he was teaching at uh colleges and universities, uh, because the movement of the field was basically if some if you're a Christian counselor and somebody comes in and is struggling with their sexual identity, that you can't really talk with them about talk with them about um putting those desires uh to death, basically, or anything that would be considered conversion therapy, where you're trying to uh do anything but affirm those per that person's feelings. And uh that was the movement of the uh the the psychological field. Um and at and in in in states, including New Jersey and Colorado here, there was a there was a ban on doing anything that would be considered conversion therapy, and it made it really difficult for Christian counselors that had certain core convictions uh to be able to do their profession well. Well, the Supreme Court said that this um this is not this is uh not constitutional. Um and what was interesting about the case is that it was an eight to one decision, so even some of the quote unquote liberal justices agreed with the uh the the quote unquote conservative side of the court that this was um this was not something that should be upheld and got overruled. And so now that's now that's gonna have uh uh broad reaching broad ranging implications across the um across the field. Uh Neil Gorsuch, who wrote for the court, Justice Gorsuch said the law in Colorado censors speech based on viewpoint, and the First Amendment he wrote stands as a shield against any effort to enforce an orthodoxy in thought or speech in this country, and his opinion actually drew support, as I mentioned, from Justice Kagan and Justice Sotomayor. So those two don't normally agree, or those three don't normally agree on cases like that. Now I think from a uh Christian worldview perspective, this is a a good thing. Um you know, not that we uh don't want to minister to people that uh wrestle with uh, you know, LGBTQ uh issues. Um but the problem with the law was that people it infringed upon uh religious liberty and speech liberty to be able to live out your core convictions, especially if you held to a um uh a high view of the Bible, which would lead you to believe that uh uh there's uh there's a sexuality uh framework that's laid out there. Uh so this is a a good thing, I think, from that perspective. Um you want to jump in here and add anything to that?

Dave 17:01

Yeah, sure. So we had Mark Yarhouse here a few years ago. He talked about three lenses you can view this issue through the diversity lens, the integrity lens, the disability lens. And you know, as a Christian, we can either look through the integrity lens, this is right or wrong, or the disability lens that, you know, in a fallen world all of our um capacities can be um broken and in need of uh redemption, including uh disordered sexual desires. The diversity lens is where you essentially are forced to accept with uh unconditional acceptance and support any uh sexual proclivity. That's what's a problem. So I think for this particular issue, there's a couple things at play in my mind. Number one, it's discriminatory, it discriminates against certain counselors in the field, specifically those who uh are from a Christian worldview, but maybe others too, who don't necessarily buy into the entire uh hook, line and sinker LGBT movement. And like Bob said, it's a free speech issue. And this is what really caught my attention because Kagan, who normally comes down on the progressive end in terms of Supreme Court cases, actually rebuked Katanji Brown Jackson on this, which you know they're usually allies uh and typically on the same page. Uh, but she basically said that Jackson was not recognizing the distinction between what's protected in terms of speech and um there's two kinds of speech that are at play. One of them is called content-based speech, and then the other one is called viewpoint-based speech. So just to I chase this rabbit hole down because I didn't know what she was talking about. So just to explain the categories there, so content-based speech is a law that actually prohibits you or restricts you from talking about something, you can't even bring up the subject. The law says you're not allowed to talk about it. So um the government says if you're talking about it, that's that's something that we're going to regulate. You can't talk about it. Viewpoint-based speech is when you give your opinion, when you have a perspective on a topic, um, and that is oftentimes um protected speech, even if it's a you know, a viewpoint that's a minority view, uh, even if it's a viewpoint that uh you know a lot of people have problems with, it's still protected speech. Uh so what the argument was trying to um persuade the the court to believe is that this is content-based based speech that should be restricted. And that that did not hold water. So to give you an example, you might say, what in the world would that be? Like, why would you ever restrict content-based speech? Well, you know how you're not allowed to like yell fire in a crowded theater? You know how you're not allowed to like you know threaten to uh assassinate the president of the United States? You're not allowed to even talk about it. That's not protected speech. You just can't you can't just do that, right? So that's content-based speech that is regulated, that um the government actually can legislate against. Viewpoint-based speech is not something um that's restricted in that way. And so in this case, the Supreme Court uh viewed this as discrimination against someone's uh viewpoint-based speech. So that that made more sense to me after they kind of explained that, but uh Jackson didn't really see things that way. Um so it's I think it's discriminatory, I think it's a free speech issue, and it's inconsistent. I th and this is the point I wanted to make. So like if you're a counselor and you think that someone who identifies emotionally as the opposite gender should be affirmed, you're free to express that viewpoint in the context of the therapeutic office. Whereas a Christian who doesn't hold that same ideology is not free to express their perspective in the therapist office. And I think that's an inconsistent discriminatory type of practice.

Bob 20:49

Well, I w I was just gonna say that that that line of argumentation we saw back with our first choice case with Amy Amy Huber, and I think it was just as Kagan, if you listen to the oral arguments, basically said, you know, if we're if we're gonna be discriminatory towards this pro-life center, who's to say that in a conservative state they're not gonna be discriminatory towards a Planned Parenthood Center? So I think she's she's arguing that it we we have to your point, we have to be consistent with how the law is being meted out. We can't there's gonna be repercussions if we if we favor one over the other and allow uh a discriminatory viewpoint to be put into law.

Dave 21:28

So along these lines, um uh in terms of uh data, scientific research, there was a new study that came out that was I think really groundbreaking about the transgender issue. Um the headline in the Washington Examiner is mental health worsened after gender transitions for youth. Major new study finds uh April 9th, 2026. Adolescents struggling with gender dysphoria who sought gender transition medical treatment were found to have worse mental health symptoms in the long term compared. To their peers, contradicting the belief that so-called gender-affirming care is significantly improves outcomes. This was a major study, longitudinal. It analyzed data from 1996 all the way to 2019 on young adults in Finland, tracked these patients across a decent amount of time to get some serious data here. And it really undermined the whole uh threat that, you know, would you rather have a dead daughter or a live son type of thinking that we were being given many years ago. The data here in this study did not bear that out. There was not a worsening mental health uh outcome for those people who did not receive treatment in this way. In fact, it was actually the opposite. And so uh I thought that that study was a good scientific backing for the Supreme Court decision that came out as well that I just recently read about, that just adds weight to the fact that these counselors are not, you know, totally off the wall with their, you know, ultra-right wing type of ideology that they're trying to insert into the therapeutic office. I think there's actually good science behind their viewpoints as well. And so that was a pretty big case. I think it's gonna have some ripple effects, um, not just in Colorado, but uh in other states and Christian counselors and you know licensor practices across the country. I think it's actually a a really good win for uh those who have a Christian worldview.

Bob 23:31

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, for for sure. And uh the you know, the other thing I would just add to that is that um this was this was a uh case that intersected with the parental authority. I think we talked about that a few weeks ago. Um so uh one of the attorneys, the attorneys from the Christian counselor was arguing that the ban made it hard for parents to find therapists willing to discuss gender identity with kids unless the counseling affirmed uh you know transition. So the Colorado law wasn't really protecting children and their parents, it was substituting the government's judgment of the family. Um so from a Christian worldview perspective, we we very much have a view of what we call created or created order issues. Uh the role of parents in the family as well as uh sexuality, male and female, is certainly um something that we we affirm uh in terms of our reading of the Bible. So good recap. Alright, so that's what was happening in the news. We'll come back at you two weeks with another big, big whatever the biggest story is that we've got to be able to do that. It's gonna be huge. It's gonna be huge. We'll see we'll see.

Tim 24:36

One of the most important questions we can ask is who am I really? And for the Christian, that answer shapes everything. We want to invite you to a new small group experience called Embracing Your Christian Identity, led by NBC Elder Andrew Strain. This group will explore what it truly means to be in Christ, looking at who we were created to be, how sin has shaped our identity, and who we are now as God's redeemed people, because how we see ourselves directly impacts the decisions we make and the lives that we live. The class will meet on Sundays at 11 a.m. for five consecutive weeks from April 26th through May 24th in the YFMB room 203. If you're looking to grow in clarity, confidence, and spiritual direction, this is a great opportunity to do just that. You can sign up to the church website, and for more information, feel free to reach out to Andrew directly. Again, embracing your Christian identity. Sundays at 11 starting April 26th. We'd love to have you join us.

Bob 25:22

All right, all right, all right, all right. So let's move on to the next segment, which is the book war. Am I correct?

Tim 25:29

You are correct. So let's recap the book war. There was a little bit of book war drama on on social media, it appeared. We have some people people are beginning to voice their opinions. Um, and they're saying, Pastor Dave, there's a lot of support that for you in the sense that you should have as much time as you want to uh to recommend your book. Thank you. I appreciate you. Um and so just a quick recap. We uh we decided that there was gonna be each week was gonna be worth two points uh from from last week moving forward. So Pastor Bob did win last week, bringing the score to 8 to 11. Something I noticed today is that there were there's an it's impossible for you guys to tie based on the new scoring system uh because we left off with an odd and even number. But this week's winner is Pastor Bob with two back-to-back wins. Coming back from behind. Bringing the score to just one. Now I forgot to get rid of what is this? What kind of a pie chart is this right here? I forgot to get rid of all the data last time around. Well, people were voting for all No, they only had two options to choose from, but the last the last the old data was still in there, which I had to So this is the voting from the last two weeks. Yeah, so it's the red and the blue. Uh the red uh is a basic guide to just war tradition beating out systematic theology by Charles Hodge.

Dave 26:47

Okay. Um props to you guys. 25% of you who voted for Systematic Theology. I gotta I gotta sh give you some respect. That's that's uh it's impressive.

Tim 26:57

It was hard for me to find the the exact copy that you had um for the picture, Pastor Dave, but I I found it. Good. So here's the running score, Pastor Bob down by one point. Oh man. I don't know if Pastor Bob has ever won three weeks in a row in the history of this competition.

Dave 27:13

We've got to call a timeout. I don't know. I see a huddle. Yeah, we gotta do something, we gotta change something.

Bob 27:19

I see what's on the table here, but I think I think the the odds are in Pastor Dave's favor based on what we're offering today. We'll see. We'll see. I don't know.

Tim 27:26

I can't even remember a time when Pastor Bob has ever been in the lead. So this this could be a big week. Oh, back in the day.

Dave 27:32

Back in the day. My team, we're not taking this seriously enough, guys. All right, so who's ahead of the game?

Bob 27:37

Who goes first? The the people who the person who won or the person who lost last week?

Dave 27:42

It's like one-on-one basketball, loser's ball. Uh yeah, loser's ball. So Pastor David's got to we're going with this. In the sermon yesterday, I recommended a book, and I'm going to do it again here. It's called Grey Church. Uh, Dr. Craig Schill is a good friend of mine. Our daughters are really close together. We went to seminary together. He's a pastor. Um, he's also, you know, a just a skilled churchman, and he talks about this issue of church unity in a way that I think uh gives us some helpful categories. He talks about the conflicts that oftentimes arise in churches, and basically the subtitle says it all It's time to stop fighting about gray areas to embrace the unity that Jesus desires for us. If yesterday's sermon kind of piqued your interest in this topic and you're wondering how can I, as a Christian, pursue unity and how can I do a better job not dividing the Church of Jesus Christ that he died to unite, this is a great book to pick up. It's not a hard read. You'll see that the text and the spacing is like 1.5 spacing, so it's not really difficult. The chapters are short, there's discussion questions at the end of each chapter. And this was the subject of not only his master's thesis at DTS, but also his doctoral dissertation. So he has real data and real research in here uh that he puts together in a very readable way and he analyzes the kind of uh study that he did on churches all over the country with all different gray areas and what do they fight about most and what do they um need help with the most. And so he diagnoses the problem and then he gives some really practical answers about how to actually handle this as a 21st century evangelical Christian. Uh, it's a great book. I highly recommend it. Go to Amazon and uh give Craig some love. He's a good guy, and he is um, I think, doing some groundbreaking leadership here on this particular area. I consider him to be an expert. Uh if you learned something from yesterday's sermon, it's probably because I'm friends with Craig and it was probably something that he told me years ago. So uh he's a wonderful author, and this is the book that I'm recommending today. Great Church, Craig R. Schill. Check it out. You will not be disappointed.

Bob 29:42

Very nice. So this was his was it his D-Men dissertation that he turned into a popular, popular book?

Dave 29:47

Yeah, I mean the D-Men's a lot more, you know, kind of academic and technical, but this is the the meat of it. Very good. Put together in a way that's more accessible.

Bob 29:56

All right, well, good. That's uh that's um I'm definitely gonna be a helpful resource. A lot of people reacted well to the sermon yesterday. All right, my recommendation here is a book called Spurgeon the Pastor. Um Recovering of Biblical and Theological Vision for Ministry by Jeffrey Chang. I met Jeff Chang, Dr. Chang, out at Midwestern Seminary. He is the curator of the Spurgeon Library out there. We got to um see the collection of Charles Charles Spurgeon's pastoral library was there in this beautiful um uh room that they have for the Spurgeon Library. They had his preaching rail, the pulpit from where the um uh the church where he was converted. You remember that famous story where he's going out in a snowstorm and he goes down an aisle and he goes in there and he hears the gospel and uh the Isaiah passage comes to him and he he converts and becomes a Christian. Um and then, of course, he later on he pastored uh m uh I guess at that time, mega churches, he um started a uh pastor's college, he had orphanages, he did he made a huge impact, probably the most one of the most famous preachers of the 19th century. And uh this book walks through um his uh his thoughts on pastoral ministry. Um I think would go very, very well with uh the the passages, uh the sermons that we've been doing on uh 1st and 2 Timothy last year and this year. I also picked up, I have a sh uh Spurgeon commentary on 2 Timothy, I'm gonna be uh using for this week, so we might have a Spurgeon quote. Uh the Prince of the Pulpit, right here. There was also all these paintings of him from the different areas areas of his life, just fascinating in terms of the impact that he made. And Dr. Chang uh did say that Charles Spurgeon, uh, you would think that in a big church he wouldn't be doing the work of the hard work of pastoral ministry, but he did. He did membership interviews, he visited people, he they did church discipline. Um so uh if you want an overview of Spurgeon's uh ministry as pastor, this is this is your book right here. Pick it up.

Dave 32:11

And in the early 1900s, uh put out a bid on it and uh bought it. That's pretty interesting.

Bob 32:18

Oh, yeah, it was the um he was the guy with the Missouri Baptists. What I was told is it got uh it got sold, it got up for sale, and it was the Missouri Baptist that bid on it and got the library. Maybe I don't know if it was with him or if it was the those who bought it after him. But uh all his libraries housed right there at Midwestern Seminary in a beautiful library. So there you go. We recommend you decide.

Tim 32:43

As part of celebrating 175 years of God's faithfulness at NBC, we want to invite you to a special moment in that story. Join us on Saturday, May 2nd at 11 a.m. for our 175th anniversary tree planting ceremony here at NBC. For generations, God has been at work through this body, rooting us deeply in his truth, growing us together, and sending us out to multiply. And this tree will stand as a living reminder of that legacy. We'd love for you to come out and be part of this celebration as we reflect on what God has done and look ahead to what he will continue to do. For more information, you can contact the church office. Again, that's Saturday, May 2nd at 11 a.m. We hope to see you there. Got some questions, right? We do. Um, we have we have three questions that we're gonna ask today, and I just want to let you guys know that uh we will be having a new form debuting this episode for you guys to ask questions. Breaking news right here. Breaking news. A new form. The reason why we're having a new form is because the current way that we field questions doesn't let us know if you guys have sent one in. Uh, this new way we'll do that.

Bob 33:43

Um so we're we're gonna get pinged of a question.

Tim 33:45

We will get pinged via our email inbox if one of you guys answers a question. And you know, what better way?

Bob 33:51

So if if we get like 20 emails, we'll know people people had some thoughts on our circuit.

Tim 33:55

What better way? We would love to be backlogged with questions. We really would. So please send them in. Uh, we would love to answer them. It's one of our favorite parts of the show. Uh but we will start with this first question here. In Luke 23, verse 43, it reads, Jesus answered him, truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise. In Mark 15, 44, it reads, Pilate was surprised to hear he was already dead, meaning Jesus, and wouldn't he be equally surprised since the thief then would also have died in order to be with Jesus today?

Dave 34:28

I would say uh perhaps. The question I think you have to ask and answer is what is the relationship between the heavenly state and time? Is the day the same thing as it is down here, as it is up there in heaven? Uh does today down here mean today up there? Um would he have been surprised? You know, I guess so. There's certainly a um long drawn out, shameful, brutal process of crucifixion that they would usually um engage in. I don't know that it was totally clear when the two thieves started being crucified. It that's not clear to me that they all started being crucified at the same exact moment. I I see that the scripture tells us there was three crosses. Uh does it necessarily mean that all three men were brought up at the hill of Golgotha at the same day and the same hour? I'm not sure that that's really that clear in the in the Luke text or the Mark text. So chase that down if you have a different answer than that. The other question, which is a wild card, is where is the comma in that sentence? So um is it Jesus telling him something today, like today I'm gonna announce this to you that you're gonna be with me in paradise someday? Or is it that today is the day that we're gonna be in paradise together? There's some debate about uh what does the term today relate to? Does it relate to the fact that he's saying that thing today, or does it relate to the fact that they're going to have that promise fulfilled today? So there's some uh uh disagreement about that, and then there's also a major theological kerfoffle about did Jesus descend into hell? Uh so the Apostles' Creed says that he descended into hell. Um, that word is translated hell there in English. Does it mean hell? Does it mean the realm of the dead? Not necessarily the place of final punishment. Theologians understand that differently. Uh, some people think that just means that Jesus died, that he went to um the place of the dead, like all humans do. Uh, we certainly don't believe that he was tormented after the cross. That's not an option, but some people believe that he descended into the realm of the dead uh in order to proclaim victory. There's a common view in the reformed circles and evangelical circles sometimes, based on 1 Peter chapter 3, that says Jesus went to the realm of the dead, proclaimed his victory over sin, death, and evil, not to suffer there, but to give a message of triumph. And that's a possibility too. There's also a minority view, and I guess I don't know if this is my I don't know the data. I don't know how many people have this view. There is a view called the harrowing of hell, which is that Jesus descended to free the uh righteous people that were there, like Abraham and David, and open up heaven for them. Uh that's a view that's out there. I don't know that that's something I agree with, but that's a view that's out there. And then there's some people say that he did not descend into hell um and that he didn't go anywhere after the crucifixion except for the Father's presence. And they use that verse right there in Luke 23 to to defend that today you'll be with me in paradise. So um for them, descended into hell in the Apostles' Creed might mean suffering on the cross, not necessarily something after death. So those are the different views, and they all interact with your question about today and would the thief be there today. And so that's all I got. I don't know that that really gives a great answer, but those are some things to think about with the question.

Bob 38:08

Okay, what's the next question?

Tim 38:10

Question number two is Was Stephen at the crucifixion? Some of Jesus' final words were, Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing. And Father, into your hand I commit my spirit. In Acts 7, verse 59, Stephen says, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit, and in verse 60, Lord, do not hold this sin against them.

Bob 38:35

I don't know if we're told specifically whether Stephen is there. Um I suppose those words could be something that he heard later on that he's you know stating. Um but he could have been there. Uh we don't know for sure.

Dave 38:49

Yeah, we don't know. It certainly doesn't say he was at the crucifixion. It's possible, but that would be unconfirmed. Um Stephen is a leader in the early church, he definitely is full of faith, full of the Holy Spirit. He is the very first Christian martyr, and I think it's striking how similar his deadly um you know persecution is to the persecution of the Lord Jesus, and how even down to the forgiveness of his enemies, he is modeling what it looks like to follow Jesus even in his death. So um I don't think any of the gospels were written by the time that Stephen was stoned, though. That I don't think is an option. So either that had to be some sort of oral tradition that was being passed down already, and Stephen had heard about that, or it was just uh by his nature, because he's a follower of the Lord Jesus, this is how he behaved too, because the spirit was indwelling in him, and that's how Christians uh you know went about um giving up their lives for the faith in that way. So it's a good question, though. We got another one, right? Question uh number three.

Bob 39:51

By the way, was Stephen ministry uh named after that Stephen? Mm-hmm.

Dave 39:55

Yeah. Typically in the history of the church, Stephen being a deacon represented the kind of diaconal work that was caring for people in need. And so Stephen Ministry is a lay-caring ministry that's meant to support the diaconal ministry of the church. Not to be confused with some people who call it Stephen's ministry. One of my pet peeves. It is not Stephen's ministry, it is a Stephen ministry. There's no apostrophe, there's no S, just like there's no book of Revelation. It's not Stephen's. It's a Stephen ministry. All right, what's the other question?

Tim 40:29

All right, our final question of the day is in Mark chapter 6, verse 3, Jesus told his brothers, James, Joseph, Judas, Simon, and sisters are outside. Then in John 16, verse 26, Jesus says to his mother, Woman, behold your son, and in verse 27, then he said to the disciples, here is your mother. And from that hour the disciple took her into his home. Why would Jesus why would he excuse Mary's other children from caring for her? Is then Jesus' brother James not the author of the book of James? Wouldn't he know from the book of life? Or uh if he wasn't he know from the book of life if he was or would be a disciple?

Dave 41:07

Well, the tail end of your question is kind of uh where I was going there. So his siblings don't appear to be followers or disciples of Jesus at the time of Jesus' earthly ministry. So we learn in John chapter 7, verse 5, not even his brothers believed in him. Um so at the time it wouldn't be appropriate for Jesus to commission one of his non-believing brothers to care for his mother in that fashion. However, something dramatically changed after the resurrection, and we know that Jesus specifically appeared to James, 1 Corinthians 15 7 says that, and then after that, James became a leader in the Jerusalem church uh in Acts 15. However, you may know that James, the brother of Jesus, dies a martyr, martyr's death. So he would not have been able to grow old and care for Mary, um his mother, either. Um, so tradition says that John, the beloved disciple, became the pastor of the church at Ephesus. That's where Mary eventually ended up in her later years, and so it would have been appropriate for John, the beloved disciple, to take care of Jesus' mother in that way. Now you're asking the question about the book of life, and wouldn't Jesus have known that the other brothers would have accepted him later too? The book of life is an interesting um question. I don't know that we know for sure that the book of life is already written in advance of people being converted. Like when does the name get written in the book of life? Does that happen in the sense of predestination and an election, or does that happen after that person crosses the line of faith and is regenerated? I don't know that we know when the book of life gets populated with names. Uh so that's an interesting thing to think about. The other thing is, did Jesus limit his knowledge while he was here on earth? Uh did he have full exhaustive omniscience? Other passages seem to indicate that he didn't. Uh, and then just to throw a total curveball at you with this question for completeness, uh Catholics and even Orthodox traditions do not interpret uh those individuals as being Jesus' brothers. They interpret them differently, and they argue that they are cousins uh or even children of Joseph from a different marriage. And so there are other traditions, I don't agree with those traditions, but there are other traditions that say that there was no other uh children of Mary, and that that's something to think about too as we think about that question. So a lot of things to think about, but I hope that gave you some um research to chase down as you consider uh getting your own answer to that. But thank you for the question and keep them coming. Tim's got a brand new question for him. You're gonna want to try it out, you're gonna want to click that button and uh just give us give us your best shot. We'd love to hear. From you. So um keep the questions coming.

Bob 44:04

Alright, very good. So uh any other questions or we're good? We're good there? We think that we've solved all the main problems for today? All the problems have been solved. All right, good. Well, that's feels like a good day's work.

Tim 44:17

As we continue celebrating 175 years of God's faithfulness at MBC, we want to invite you to a special gathering of our entire church family. Join us on Sunday, June 7th at 4 p.m. for our 175th anniversary worship service, a unique opportunity to come together as one body and give thanks for all that God has done through this church. This will be a joint service bringing together our whole congregation for an afternoon of worship, reflection, and celebration. The service will take place at Liquid Church, located at 299 Webro Road in Parsippony, providing space for us to gather and celebrate this milestone together. You can find more information, register, or even sign up to serve by visiting the church website. Again, that's the 175th anniversary worship service, Sunday, June 7th at 4 o'clock p.m. Come celebrate what God has done and worship together as we continue to look ahead at what he will continue to do.

Bob 45:04

Okay, so let's move into our sermon discussion. So we have, since we're doing every other week, we got two sermons to talk about. We have an Easter sermon and we have a uh a riveting, a uh raucous sermon that Pastor Dave gave yesterday. I'm sure there's lots of questions um surrounding that. Uh so I guess what we did last time was we'll go back and forth, and uh you can probably ask me first since I preach first, and then I'll we'll go back and forth and tag team on the different sermons. Okay. Do we like that format, or do we want to take a look at that?

Tim 45:36

I would even say that we love that format.

Bob 45:37

We love it. Okay. All right. What is it worth having that as part of a fellow mug? Like put it putting uh we we love the back and forth as a logo on here. Maybe.

Dave 45:49

So 2 Timothy chapter 2, specifically for Easter, uh, was the passage covering verses 8 through 13. Can you give us a 60-second flyover about what that passage is talking about?

Bob 46:04

Yeah, 2 Timothy chapter 2, verses um 8 to 13. We were we were covering that, looking at it from an Easter lens, and the primary verse we focus a lot of time on was verse 8, which uh talked about uh the fact that we had a uh we we need to remember Jesus Christ risen from the dead. Uh we talked about how that's something that's very very easy to forget. And then the uh the middle part, uh Paul talks um more about that and why that's important, and then he ends with this uh uh creed, uh creedal statement that was likely the creedal statement of the early church. Um and uh there's some some debate in there about uh some of the meanings. Um but our main our main thing was to remember that Jesus Christ is risen from the dead. That should be our animating focus for our lives, not just on Easter, but but throughout. Um and uh yeah, lots of lots of good applications, I think, but that was the main gist of it.

Dave 47:03

Great. Well, you know, one of the interesting things about that passage was you know how appropriate for Easter it was. You know, remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, uh descended from David, this is my gospel, according to my gospel. I think that's important for us to remember, and I think um one of the cool things about the passage was this early church trustworthy saying, creed, hymn, poem, that we got a chance to look at a little bit more deeply. And so I wonder if you could tell us in your sermon research, what is that thing that's got some cadence and some structure and some rhythm and some symmetry to it in verses 11 through 13? Are we looking at a uh song that people used to sing? Are we looking at some kind of uh recitation that would fit in a liturgical context? Are we looking at a hymn? It's got uh a certain memorability to it, a certain memorizability to it. Let me just read it and then maybe you can um explain what you think it means after I read it. Here is a trustworthy saying, 2 Timothy 2 11. If we died with him, we will also live with him. If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us. If we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself. Now I'm reading out of the NIV. I think you were doing ESV Sunday, but tell us a little bit more about what's going on with that creed.

Bob 48:38

Well, yeah, I I agree. I think there's uh the consensus was most people think this was either a hymn that was sung or a a a type of creedal statement that the early uh church passed down orally, uh that Paul eventually records here in in 2 Timothy. Um not outside the ordinary for Paul to do that. Uh, you know, there's a there's a a a bit of a creed that happens in 1 Corinthians 15 about the resurrection. Um, you know, there's the the famous uh passage in Philippians chapter 2, um where we talk about what Jesus what Jesus did uh by coming down from heaven, uh, and one day every knee's gonna bow, every tongue's gonna confess that he's he's Lord. Um I think the general pattern here though is he's recording at the beginning this kind of dying and rising pattern um of what it means to follow after Jesus. Now it it obviously, with that in mind, is is a picture of what happens in baptism, but in Timothy's context, uh very much he is uh uh pointing to the fact that this might be this might be a martyrdom issue, that if you want to uh really live, you might have to give up your life to follow after Jesus. Um second part is about us enduring and then reigning. Uh the word endure uh is used about a crown that you get at the end of a fight. So it's like the uh the boxer who goes in the ring and wins the fight and then is is crowned uh champion. It's it's talking about having a courageous steadfastness, um, that you're you're holding the line even in the midst of persecution and resistance and suffering, and as you do that, you you achieve the resurrected life. And then the uh uh the denial versus the denial, like if we deny him, he's gonna deny us. I think that's a warning, uh a warning, and it's the same word that's used there uh uh as what's used of Peter when he denies Jesus three times in in the Gospels. Um and so I think what he's talking about there is a deli a deliberate denial of Christ, and if you do that, um he's gonna disown you at the final judgment. Um the last part about us being faithless and him remaining faithful is probably the one that's that's the most debated, although I think most people think that it points to the main thrust is the character of God, that he's the one that ultimately saves us and is faithful to us, even if we remain remain faithless. But uh, you were asking me before, I assume this is part of your question, is are there different perspectives on how you interpret verse 13? And there are there are three main perspectives on this. So the first one, because it's i it's an issue of that there's this tension between our faithfulness and God's faithfulness, and because of the the clause before it seems to be uh provoking or pointing to judgment, is this a clause about comfort or about judgment? Um you know, what does it look like? So one perspective understands that God's um God has enduring faithfulness to us despite our lapse of faith, and it's a positive assurance. So some people think it's it's that uh that reads like some of the things that Paul says, Paul says elsewhere. Umthers disagree, they think this is can a continuation of the negative warning. So you have this immediate preceding clause, as I mentioned, that says if we deny him, he's gonna deny us. And then uh what I didn't get to get into with this this whole passage, 8 to 13, is it's book-ended between Paul basically calling out some people who deserted the faith who were not remaining faithful in the midst of persecution. So you had some at the beginning of chapter 2, and then we had a few that got named again, which Dave talked about yesterday in his sermon. Um so so people think this is linked to false teachers who are um going to be judged because they're they're faithless. And then there is a third approach uh that attempts to distinguish between let's let's say severity levels. So some people say that verse 13's faithfulness described a less severe failure than the apostasy that's mentioned in verse 12. So you have if we deny him, he'll deny us. That's people that totally walked away from the faith. Um this might be people that um are stumbling, they haven't completely abandoned the faith. Um, you know, so it's more about that there's a chance that they'll come back because God is faithful to bring them back. Uh that's the uh that's the third point. But the foundational principle that people are looking at is across the interpretations is that human faithfulness, faithlessness cannot undermine divine faithfulness. God can't deny himself. So if you are in Christ, uh you will come back. God's going to do a work in your life. Um and uh the disagreement really is on whether uh it's it's really primarily about comforting struggling believers or warning those who are presuming against God's mercy. So that's the things that are interplay there in verse uh in verse 13.

Dave 53:43

I want to share a couple quotes with the second view, which kind of struck me as a little bit um challenging. So maybe this will challenge you too. So a more common view, I think, is what you preached, which is this is about if we have a weak faith, then he's going to remain faithful. But in Elicott's commentary, he says this those who have understood these words as containing soothing, comforting voices for the sinner, for the faithless Christian who has left his first love are gravely mistaken. Like, whoa. Here's what Matthew Henry said. If we believe not, which I looked up the Greek word, it's like ah pastuo, right? Faith less without faith. Right. If we believe not, um, yet he abideth faithful. Sorry about the eths, he abides faithful. He cannot deny himself. He is faithful to his threatenings, faithful to his promises, neither one nor the other shall fall to the ground. So he's faithful to his promises, but he's also faithful to his warnings. And then Calvin, uh Calvin says this if we are unbelieving, he remains faithful. The meaning is that our base desertion takes nothing from the Son of God or from His glory, because having everything in Himself, he stands in no need of our confession. As if He has said, Let them desert Christ who will, yet they take nothing from Him, for when they perish, He remains unchanged. He cannot deny Himself. So this is an interesting take. Um in the early church there was this controversy called the Donatist controversy, where people, when faced with persecution, backed away and didn't confess Christ. They they chose to preserve their lives. And there was great debate about whether or not the church should allow them back into membership after the persecution subsided. So there were some people who said, yeah, uh, we should let them back in, and then other people said, No, you know, the church should remain pure, they've already failed, we're not gonna allow them back into the church. So that was a big huge controversy in the early church about this. What do you do when somebody is is faithless? So something to debate. I wonder what do you guys think? How do you interpret that first? That was that was an interesting question uh to think through and certainly challenge each other to remain faithful and steadfast despite you know persecution. So thank you for handling that and giving us some different views to think about. Um so a couple other questions. Um denying Christ seems really overt and really obvious, and um something that you would be able to to display and it wouldn't be under question. But are there some subtle ways that I can deny Christ that aren't so overt? Are there subtle ways that I might be in danger of committing the sin described in verse 12 of denying him? Like I was thinking about denying him through just silence or denying him through compromise or denying him through fear of man. You know, are there some other ways that we can practically deny him in our lives?

Bob 56:52

Well, I think those are good examples. Um I think the uh the temptation to be silent when you know you should speak is probably very strong. Um especially if there's gonna be consequence for people knowing where you stand and having a strong making it known you have a strong faith. Um so just in in the sermon I gave the example of uh uh that Chris Pratt interview. Chris Pratt, um well-known actor in Hollywood, um, is a Christian, uh claims to follow uh Christ. And uh I was listening to this podcast, I heard him share a bit about how he came to faith and what his life like was like before. Um and then even after he came to faith, you know, talking about the different struggles he had, you know, he's he's been divorced, uh his his child was born with some I think some medical issues, and he said, yeah, during those times, you know, I wasn't always uh you know following following Christ like I should. Um but uh but he did say he gave the example of being a Christian in Hollywood, he was kind of silent about that, and everybody really liked him. They're like, Oh, that's Chris. He's funny, you have seen the movies, he's like the funny guy, you know. Um seems very likable, very, very charismatic. But he didn't he didn't say much about about his faith, and he said um he got up and got that uh award at the MTV Movie Awards um uh a number of years a couple years ago, and he had this viral speech. And it was funny when he was talking on the podcast, he was saying that, you know, he basically asked them, is this the last chance I have to be a nominated for this award? And he said, they said yeah, and he goes, All right, well then you know what? I'm just gonna say what I think. And he got up there and made this uh this speech that pointed towards faith in Christ. And um the last line he said specifically was Um, you know, you were bought with a price, uh somebody somebody else's blood pointing to Christ. Um don't forget it, which I thought was a nice tie-in with this particular passage and Paul's emphasis on the remembering Jesus Christ and what he did for us and the promises that he has um for us both now and in the future. Um I bring that up to say that he was tempted, Chris Pratt, was tempted into silence, and he's probably not the only one that if you you mention your views that are informed by biblical truths on certain issues, or if you mention, you know, Jesus is the only way, uh there there's a temptation to just you know, it's just easier if I just don't say anything. I'm just not gonna stir the pot. Um is that a form of denial? I think we're getting into probably some some gray gray waters there. Yeah.

Dave 59:35

I don't know if you guys have been following the NBA story from the Bulls. By the way, shout out to Jacob Harold for winning the Band of Brothers NBA uh NCAA bracket tournament. Shout out Jacob Harold not only nailed the two remaining uh finalists, good for him and Michigan, but he nailed Michigan and completely took away that um that tournament, man.

Tim 59:59

Tim it was close for a while. I was in the lead for I think much of this tournament. Um, and then Jacob Harold just took over and he lapped us all, man. He put us in the dirt and stepped on us and squished us like little bugs.

Dave 1:00:13

He did. So good job, Jacob. But bringing up basketball is I don't know if you guys have seen this story about Jaden Ivy on the Bulls. Evidently, they celebrate Pride Month in the NBA and he criticized it as celebrating unrighteousness. And evidently he was talking about this in the team meetings in the locker room, and he was waived off the bulls because of what they called conduct that was detrimental to the team. And I thought, what's going on here? And I started looking into the story, and I was a little confused because some of them uh people that were that were supposedly his teammates and stuff were calling him mentally ill, and that seemed like uh is there any truth to that, or is that a slur, or is there something wrong with him, or is this just a way to attack his outspoken Christianity? Because he's not willing to deny his faith, and he's um kind of not backing down from that. And now other athletes are sort of coming to his defense. There was a guy on the Patriots that recently kind of spoke out in uh defending Jaden Ivey for not denying Christ in the context of the NBA who wanted to you know celebrate Pride Month. And uh Trayvon Henderson said, you know, he stands with him considering this kind of persecution. So when that happens, if I'm in the NBA and I'm a Christian and I see what happened to Jaden Ivey, I'm gonna be a little bit more hesitant to say anything, right? It's like it kind of puts a chill in the air for anybody else who wants to say something like that. That's what makes that creed hard because sometimes there's a cost to speaking up. And so we have to push through that.

Bob 1:01:49

Yeah, we've seen some of these themes already in the letter leading up to this in chapter one, and things that Paul was affirming, and you know, he's in chains, he's about to die, and people don't want to come and see him because they might be put in jail and killed too. I mean, it was uh it was a crazy time back then. Right.

Dave 1:02:07

So I don't know if you've got an opinion about the Ivy story. For some reason, his wife is not totally on the same page as him, so that makes me pause, go, what's the background of this story? How come your wife is not uh is she not a Christian or is she just uh concerned about something else? So the story to me is a little bit lacking information, but it was I think relevant to the text that you're talking about anyway. So well, good job on the sermon. Did you have any other thoughts or um final words of wisdom?

Bob 1:02:38

No, other than uh thanks to Rachel for getting me the seed packets to have an illustration for the kids. They they did a good job shaking them up. So it was a fun, fun Easter moment. Get ready for an unforgettable week this summer.

Tim 1:02:51

VBS 2026 is coming, and this year's theme is Rainforest Falls. From July 13th through the 17th, kids will step into a vibrant rainforest adventure where they'll discover the nature of God and what it means to be rooted in a lifelong relationship with their creator. VBS is open to kids entering kindergarten through entering sixth grade, and it will run each day from 9 a.m. to 12 15 p.m. It's a week filled with games, music, teaching, and tons of fun, all designed to point kids to the truth of who God is and how much he loves them. Registration is open now with simple family pricing: $35 for one child, $60 for two, or $90 for three or more. And for just a few dollars more, you can add a digital music download so your kids can keep singing all summer long. We're also looking for volunteers, teens, and adults to help make this week happen. If it's your first time serving, we'll walk you through a quick screening process. You can register your kids or sign up to serve by visiting the church website. Again, that's VBS 2026, Rainforest Falls, July 13th through the 17th.

Bob 1:03:47

Don't miss it. Alright, so yesterday you preached, we were into 2 Timothy 2, 14 to 19, and uh you you talked a little bit about unity. You kind of used that Artemis illustration about how they had to be unified on mission to get to the moon and back. And then you contrasted that with a lot of division that happens in the church, and so I I have a few questions to that end. The first one I just want to ask, broad question, is why why would you surmise that the church is so divided in today's uh day? Today's moment, as Tim likes to say.

Dave 1:04:24

Yeah. Um, I think there's a lot of reasons. I think um we like to have certainty, we like to feel like our views are the right views, we like to uh really have a confidence in everything that we believe, and we think that that's like a hundred percent across the board, and we think that the Bible speaks with equal clarity on every single issue. We tend to believe that like I don't know if you've ever heard of the old shell answer man, but we think the Bible is like the old shell answer man where he has an answer for every single question that there is. The Bible is sufficient, but it's also not a hundred percent comprehensive on every single issue. There are things that the Bible doesn't speak to or make abundantly clear. So that makes us uncomfortable. We're generally uncomfortable with not being clear. So as a result, we express more certainty than the Bible allows, and then we get into conflict with others who don't agree with us. Number two, our background, our denomination, the way we grew up. You know, there's about 9,000 denominations right now in the world. So if you were raised in a certain context and you have certain traditions, you're gonna tend to think those are the right traditions because they feel like they're supposed to happen. That's how you were accustomed to um you know practicing your Christianity. So you kind of grew up that way, you know. Um I will say that we're divided because of pride. I mean, that's just kind of an obvious thing. Sin um grows its you know, ugly self inside of us, and we um feel self important with our our own opinions. Opinions. And so we, you know, James chapter three says, when pride is there, conflicts abound, right? That's a manifestation of the human nature. Uh, human nature knows how to fight, right? Like, this is not a Christian thing. This is a human nature thing. Um, so there's no difference if you bring human nature into a church, they're gonna obviously have those sinful proclivities too. Now, the difference is we do have the Holy Spirit and we do have a unifying answer in the church to actually behave differently in the world, but we're divided because the whole world is divided. Has anybody noticed the whole world is divided? This isn't a Christian, uniquely uh Christian problem. We're extremely polarized right now in the world and in our culture specifically, but it also applies to the church as well. Um I think there's also just a fourth reason is there's been a general lack of teaching on the issue of gray areas in the church. We uh how many of you out there have you ever heard a sermon on gray areas? Anyone? Like, thank you, Tim. So I think it's uh not the most popular preaching topic. It it doesn't really get talked about, doesn't really get taught. We don't know how to handle gray areas, even though it's extremely relevant and it should be applied in a sermon context. I don't think people hear a lot of sermons about that.

Bob 1:07:16

Today's world, I think if you you say those things, they might say, Well, you're just you're just being a coward. Yeah. Or you're yeah, you're not standing, you're not standing firm for the faith. Right, right.

Dave 1:07:26

Right. And so those are some reasons why we're so divided. I guess there's more, but those are some I thought of.

Bob 1:07:32

Well, oh let's uh and and you did this in the sermon, but maybe you can summarize for us what are gray areas and um why do people like to fight and posture on those gray areas? Take us take us a little bit into some of the of the heart motivations that you started to allude to.

Dave 1:07:52

I define the gray area as a spiritual issue that leaves room for legitimate differences of opinion based on sound biblical interpretation. Notice I said sound biblical interpretation. We're not saying that some off-the-wall hermeneutic is going to lead you to this, you know, a legitimate position. You have to have good reasoning to hold your position. That's my definition of a gray area. Um, there's a lot of synonyms for that. So some people will make tiers and they say first tier, second tier, third tier. Gray issues would be like third tier in that uh model. Al Moeller calls it like theological triage. That's how you find out what's the most important thing to work on, what's the the thing that can wait to work on in the you know in the ER context. So gray issues would like be waiting out in the hallway uh because there's other more important patients bleeding out right now, and we're gonna like prioritize the the you know peripheral things. So that's a definition of gray issues.

Bob 1:08:51

Uh I'm sorry, there was a part two of your question, and I'm what why do people like to fight and posture on the sometimes I feel like people care more about gray issues than they do about core issues. And I was just asking for your thoughts, but more more so, like what you know, what what's the heart? What's the root issue? Why is it that people feel so strongly about issues that should be out in the hallway?

Dave 1:09:19

You know, I think um there's some driving forces here: looking good, feeling good, being right, being in control. Those are all very attractive things to human nature. Uh so I want to have all those things, and when I'm correct on on all these issues, it makes me feel good about myself. Um maybe that's one reason. I think people generally uh enjoy a good tussle, a good debate, you know. We we like to mix it up a little bit, throw some hands, we like to, you know, hey, let's just let's spice up this conversation a little bit, make it into an argument. What do you think about this, right? It does make for uh a little bit more of an interesting kind of uh you know dialogue with people. So we start a fight. We start a debate. You know, people like like to do that, they like to debate, they like to fight, and people like to be right. So it's something that you know we have to we have to be careful about. It's okay to debate, but I don't want to squelch debate, but it's just what's the posture and are you allowing for people to you know still maintain fellowship despite the debate?

Bob 1:10:29

Right.

Dave 1:10:30

Yeah, sure.

Bob 1:10:32

All right, so uh what I was thinking about with some of your examples was that some people might feel like these gray areas are black and white areas. Um and my question was, is it okay at times to divide over gray areas? Now, I I think if I understood you correctly, you were trying to say no, we shouldn't. But if you feel strongly, at what point does it become an issue of of conscience for you? And how do you debate strongly if you feel strongly about an issue that's not black and white but it's great? Is it just are you just saying it's just not worth your time? Um should we just leave it out in the door and never talk about it? How how do we handle that?

Dave 1:11:13

Okay, so I didn't get into this in the sermon, but uh I do think that there's uh a difference between tier one, tier two, and tier three that's worth talking about. So tier one would be that cardinal doctrine tier. I've explained that. Tier two is an issue that's going to disrupt body life and polity as you are engaged in a certain church context. Like you're gonna have to make a decision about baptizing babies. You're gonna have to make a decision about women pastors, you're gonna have to make a decision about your philosophy of worship, your philosophy of preaching. You're gonna have to make a decision about those kinds of things which are not cardinal doctrines, but they are going to get in the way of operating church in a healthy fashion so that uh people are not constantly on edge and disagreeing about these things, right? So you have to make a decision sometimes about these areas that are disputed, but just for the sake of local church practicality, you're gonna gather together and covenant with other brothers and sisters who feel similarly on these doctrinal issues as you do. And that's where denominations come in that are legitimate divisions. So, you know, my brothers in Christ who are down at the Echo Presbyterian Church down the street who baptize babies are probably not going to feel comfortable here when I'm gonna insist that the person have a valid profession of faith, and vice versa. But it's okay that we have a division in our um two denominations because we believe differently about this, but those fences should not be like 10 feet high. Those fences should be like a foot high, and we should be able to cross those fences and do ministry work with those brothers and sisters in Christ arm in arm together for the gospel. I should have no problem going on the city relief bus with my buddies over here at the Presbyterian Church that believe the gospel, that are faithful Christians. I should have no problem with that. So the fences are there, but make them low enough that you can traverse back and forth into each other's yards and still maintain the unity that you have in the gospel. So it's okay to divide for ecclesiastical purposes because it's just practical. Sometimes churches have to have those kind of decisions. Now, to your question, if the issue really is gray, third tier, there's no reason to have any kind of church division over this. The problem is not that you have an opinion and you have a conscience issue with this. You you can feel very strongly about that. Like let's say you just you have a no-alcohol policy in your house, right? That's your thing. You're allowed to think that. You're you're I'm not gonna say you're not allowed to have that opinion. Of course, you're allowed to have that opinion. That can be the way that you decide to operate your Christian life. What you're not supposed to do is then impose your opinion onto another brother in Christ and say, this is the way you should do it too. Now we're getting into legalism. Now we're getting into the problem of elevating your opinion on a gray area to the point where you're saying what I'm doing is either right or wrong. And now we're dividing and judging and kind of um, I think encroaching onto the territory that Paul is warning about here in terms of quarreling unnecessarily. Okay. So there's where you kind of have to uh make a decision.

Bob 1:14:28

Good. Good. Well, that's a great, great explanation. Um you talked in the second section about false teaching. So I I wondered as you were talking about what we what we shouldn't fight about, but then what we should fight for, or what we should what we must fight about, you said. Um how do you recognize false teaching and do you think there's times where people uh can use that accusation as a bit of a power play? I mean, I see people do that a lot, and uh they're taking issues that you might be defining as gray, turning them into black and white issues, and then saying if you don't hold my position, then actually you're a false teacher. And you should stay away from them. How do you handle that?

Dave 1:15:11

Yeah. Okay, so the whole trick here is to get the buckets right and categorize them appropriately. It sounds nice on paper. Oh, there's these three buckets, it's a piece of cake. It would be nice if we all agreed about which issues drop into each bucket. We're not in agreement about that. Yeah. So that we have to figure out how do you define a gray area and what makes something a gray area. There's different ways to look at this. Um, I do want to bring up that chart, Tim, that I had sent you earlier just to kind of explain this.

Bob 1:15:38

Uh chart sighting.

Dave 1:15:39

I made this chart. It didn't dawn on me till like in between the first and second service that this is the chart that um fits the passage, but I think this works well. So here it is. He's back in his office in between services. I literally try trying to literally, we had an extra 15 minutes. I made this chart. So the trying to get it on the PowerPoint slide.

Bob 1:15:59

Did you get it on the PowerPoint slide for the third one?

Dave 1:16:01

No. Okay. So this is brand new, hot off the press. This is the buckets in my passage, right? So look at look at the left column. There's the three buckets, gray areas, cardinal doctrines, and clear Bible teaching. And then the bottom row is how do we tell the difference? And then the verses line up perfectly with the buckets. So verse 14 is a gray area verse. It's all about quarreling about words. That's gray areas. That's what he's warning about. Don't do that. And then the next section, 16 to 18, he talks about people denying the literal resurrection. So we're we've we've now entered into cardinal doctrine territory. Now we're talking about false teaching, which is what you were just talking about. Somebody's saying this is false teaching. And then the the third row there is people who are turning away from wickedness, who are Christians. And that's clear Bible teaching that we're supposed to obey the law of the Lord and delight in the law and seek to honor him with our ethics. And that's something that we're supposed to obey. So first row, accept, second row, fight, third row, obey. And then how do we tell the difference? I think ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. 15 helps us where we correctly handle the word of truth or rightly divide the word of truth or rightly handle the word of truth. That's how we figure out what goes into what bucket. We have to rightly handle the word of truth, and that's not easy. You know, faithful Bible study will help us there, but um, I think we can also benefit from looking down the corridors of church history and asking this question, you could take the chart down, Tim. What have Christians agreed upon for the last 2,000 years of church history? If you're now like entering into territory and insisting that everybody believe something that very few people throughout church history history actually believed, you're probably not talking about a cardinal doctrine. So, you know, the ecumenical creeds, the the history of the church shows the cream rises to the top. These issues keep showing up in every generation. Okay, every single Christian believes in the Trinity, every single Christian believes in the deity of Christ and so forth. My um the my one of my professors at DTS uh said it this way. He said there's there's settled doctrines and unsettled doctrines. And so he said that settled doctrines are the teachings of the church essential to the Christian faith and life that have been tested and proved throughout the centuries. And then unsettled doctrines are the teachings of churches for which differing opinions have been deemed to be within the bounds of classic Christian faith and practice, provided settled doctrines are not affected. And so those two categories help you see the difference there. And then he said something else. He said, now there's another top category called unsettling doctrines. Unsettling doctrines are those aberrant teachings that disturb the essential teachings of the Christian faith and are damaging and sometimes destroying settling doctrines. So it takes some work to categorize correctly what goes in the gray area bucket, but I think it's worth the work and the community can help us to get there.

Bob 1:19:12

That's great. Great, thank you. Um all right, last question, kind of an exhortational question. How do you maintain truth and unity in the midst of all of these gray issues, black and white issues? Like what would you say are kind of the if you can take one thing away from this discussion, what would it be?

Dave 1:19:35

One thing away from the discussion?

Bob 1:19:37

Or or if you need more, but I was trying to boil it down to a a quick answer. Just like the main takeaway of the sermon, you mean? How do you maintain truth and unity? Like is there is there a kind of a bullet action step for us to do, or if it needs to be more than one, that's fine. How do we do it? How do we do it?

Dave 1:19:58

Well, I think uh having a framework that helps us will um definitely get us there. I'm just gonna go ahead and like quote my buddy Craig on this because like inside of this book he gives a recipe. So this will be quick, but this is like a literal how-to, right? Step one, bring it Establish gray zones, right? So establish gray zones, allow there to be gray zones around you where people can disagree in those zones. So figure out what those zones are. Step two, adjust your attitude. Adjust your attitude, right? So if you see somebody who has a different opinion than you, stop judging them and condemning them, stop ridiculing them. That is not the right attitude. You need to have the attitude of acceptance and love. Number three, accept your adversary. Accept genuinely, not half-hearted, like you resign to accept them, like literally accept your adversary who disagrees with you about a great issue. Don't merely tolerate them, like full-on, like frontal hug. You accept them. They are your brother in Christ, though you guys disagree on that. So those are three kind of quick little how-to steps about how to put this into practice. I thought that was helpful from the book.

Bob 1:21:10

Great.

Dave 1:21:11

But if you want to learn more, don't forget.

Bob 1:21:13

Right there. Go and buy it. It's in the book war. Great church.

unknown 1:21:18

All right.

Tim 1:21:18

Hopefully, a lot of people will be buying the book. If you've been attending NBC and are starting to feel at home, we want to invite you to take a meaningful next step through our upcoming membership class. This will be a two-week class taking place on Sunday, April 26th, and Sunday, May 3rd at 1030 a.m. at the YFMB Great Room. Church membership isn't about joining a club. It's about stepping into a spiritual family. At Millington Baptist Church, membership means committing to a community that encourages one another, serves together, and lives on mission. This class is designed to help you make an informed decision to learn about the history, vision, and beliefs of MBC, explore what it means to live in Christian community, and have the opportunity to ask questions and connect with church leadership. Topics will include our articles of faith, church covenant, and mission and vision, along with practical next steps for getting more involved. At the end of the class, you'll have the option, without obligation, to move forward in the membership process. So if you're considering making MBC your church home, this is the place to start. For more information, you can contact the church office or reach out through the website. We would love to see you at our very next membership class.

Bob 1:22:23

Alright, I think we're done. I think we're at the end. So we've come to the theology sprint. And I think you had a riveting question over there for us, Tim.

Tim 1:22:33

Yes, the word riveting is being you recycled a lot today.

Bob 1:22:39

Millie mentioned it yesterday and people uh people chuckled a bit.

Tim 1:22:43

Um so today's theology sprint is Is Hell real?

Bob 1:22:55

You want me to go or you want to go?

Dave 1:22:57

I mean, I'll start. So there's four views on hell. There's the eternal conscious torment view. Um that is the view that hell is a place that we go to forever and uh has never ending torment for those who reject God. There's the annihilationist view, that's the view that uh there is punishment for the wicked, but it is not eternal in nature, they are eventually destroyed. Then there is the universalist view that says that there really is no hell, that everyone actually goes to heaven. And then there's the purgatory view, which is the view of the Catholic Church, that there's a temporary uh place of refinement and purging for our sins before we can actually go to heaven. So I think hell is real. I think hell exists. It exists because we serve a perfectly just God, it exists because human beings are morally accountable, and it exists because God actually honors the people's choice to reject him. And he says, either, like C. S. Lewis says, there's two kinds of people in the end, those to whom uh those who say to God, Thy will be done, and those to whom God says thy will be done. So I think hell is real.

Bob 1:24:03

And that has been one of the dominant views, uh, the idea of the eternal conscious torment throughout church history. So we might put church history in there as well, of course, outside of the uh of the Catholic faith. Yes, hell is real.

Dave 1:24:19

Don't go there. I would say Jesus. Was there any ever any major revival in the history of the church that came from some preacher or some movement that didn't believe in hell? Did that ever happen? I don't know the answer to that. But I would like to know.

Bob 1:24:37

Like I'm not aware I'm not aware of it. In people coming to God in a way that's if it's not just feel good, yeah, universal, God's gonna you'll it doesn't matter what you do, God's eventually gonna save everybody. In in that in that universalist uh idea, I don't I don't know how you kind of get around this the licentiousness of it, that if there's no consequences for how I live, why can't I live however I want to live?

Dave 1:25:05

Um It certainly appears to be a necessary inference from that.

Bob 1:25:10

Yeah. Alright, well, we're glad that you joined us for Behind the Pulpit. We'll be back uh next week. No, we don't no, sorry, two weeks. Yes. Two weeks, that's the new thing. Two weeks. Uh we'll be back talking about the next couple sections of Second Timothy, and uh, we hope to see you this week or next week. Um hopefully you enjoyed the uh the commercial breaks with Tim. I assume you were bopping and weaving.

Tim 1:25:33

I was bobbing and bobbing and weaving.

Bob 1:25:37

We'll see you later. Have a great day. God bless.