Behind The Pulpit
Our weekly pastors podcast where we discuss fun new stories, church events, previous sermons. As well as answering interesting questions from you!
Behind The Pulpit
Where in the World was Pastor Dave Hentschel?
This week on Behind the Pulpit, Pastor Bob is joined once again by Pastor Dave as the team kicks off the episode with a brand-new Weekly Warm-Up, reflecting on Romans 12:15 and what it means to rejoice with those who rejoice and weep with those who weep—especially during the Christmas season. From there, the conversation moves into In the News, where the pastors thoughtfully engage recent cultural and theological headlines, followed by another installment of the Book War, offering recommendations that help Christians think more clearly about truth, theology, and the world we’re living in.
In the sermon recap segment, the pastors unpack Isaiah 58 and wrestle with its challenging call to authentic worship, justice, and mercy. The discussion explores how God confronts performative religion, calls His people to care for the vulnerable, and invites the church to live out faith in tangible, costly ways—pressing listeners to consider how obedience to this passage should shape everyday Christian life.
The episode wraps up with the Theology Sprint, tackling a difficult and often polarizing question: Should Christians support or oppose the death penalty?—bringing the conversation to a thoughtful close that challenges listeners to engage complex issues with biblical clarity, humility, and conviction.
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Chapters:
0:00 Intro
6:48 Weekly Warmup
12:15 In the News
22:43 The Great Book War
37:38 Sermon Recap
1:04:24 Theology Sprint
Music
"Ventura"
Morgan Taylor
U76EPPNJDYZYU0Y7
Hey there, fans of Behind the Pulpit. Welcome to our show for December the 15th, 2025. Before we get into the nitty-gritty, I got a request for you. Go if you have not subscribed to our channel, do so. Like this video, even before you've watched it. And uh and what's the other thing? Click on the notification bell button. I always forget all the three things that you should do. Uh, my name's uh Pastor Bob. I am uh here uh hosting this. I've been by myself, been quite lonely the last few weeks. Oh although uh, well, let lonely at the desk. You know, Tim and Noah have been have been here. They've been uh, you know, kind of off to the side, uh, but they've been with us. Thank you guys. You're welcome. Uh for being over there to hear their voice. Um, but guess what? Guess what? It is a it's it's we're approaching Christmas, and I we have gotten some letters, some angry fan mail asking where is Pastor Dave? Is something wrong with him? Can you wait for his absence? I I I could not do it, but uh I got some questions in the hallways. Where's Dave? What's going on? Uh and so, Tim, did you watch that show uh uh Where in the World is Carmen San Diego growing up? I I had a computer game that I played for about a day. Remember the theme that was a Where in the World is Carmen San Diego? I don't remember that. That was the theme song. So I thought I thought our song today could be Where in the World Is Pastor Dave Henshul? And that's what people were asking. And he's back, folks! Here he is. We found him, we transported him back all the way from wherever it is that you were out like doing the forest gump. You ran across the country a couple times. Come back with with uh I just felt like running.
Dave:I'm gonna go home now. This chair is cold. Have you guys been like keeping this thing outside in the snow? That's a great question. Nobody's gonna be able to do it. It's not been getting much use.
Bob:It's not been getting much use. That's for true.
Dave:It's time to warm this chair back up.
Bob:I don't use that one for the fresh wave anymore, so it's just been empty. Oh man, I can feel it. Yeah. It's when you're not here, it's uh it's it's uh it's noticeable. All right, so since you were gone, uh in your stead, we had uh we had the course the Reese's. You still have that? We still had this. It was it was an honorary spot. I keep saying we should. One of these days we will. Maybe on our Christmas Eve episode, we'll finally eat the Reese's uh as an honorary. But I will tell you though, the reason I'm bringing it out is because we did discover we have two uh number one fans. I think they're tied for number one fans. We got the Battle of the Johns, that's a new segment. John Bucksbaum and John Rickershauser. And John Rickershauser showed up in person with he came bearing gifts. He was one of the wise men. He came last week, spoke to me, and spoke to Tim. Did he speak to you, Tim?
Tim:He did. He informed me of a uh of a local ice pond that freezes over uh that I could play hockey on.
Bob:Well, that's true. You are a big hockey fan. That was that was a helpful information. He gave me a gift, and I am now gonna pass that gift on to Dave, since Dave is back. You ready, Dave? This is this was quite the uh quite the gift. No, not this, no. Close your eyes right now, close your eyes. Here it comes, here it comes. Here it comes, right here. Now you can look. Wow. For those of you thinking, I don't know if you can zoom in here. This is a little a little bunny rabbit that's got a Resus scarf and it sings. It sings. Ready, Dave? Let's sing.
Dave:Okay. Wow.
Bob:And I think it's got another one. There you go.
Dave:This is quality podcast.
Bob:We're gonna win an award for this show. This was a gift for you. He came and gave it to me. Yeah. But I feel I feel not right keeping it. I feel I must pass it on to you.
Dave:Jenna or Josiah or Zoe will like it, I think.
Bob:Well, they might they might. They might.
Dave:It's it's beautiful, Jenna. Well, let's just say for today it's yours. It's a rabbit after my own heart. Yeah. May may this rabbit's tribe increase.
Bob:Well man, you just came back from this doctoral seminar with with lots of wisdom. Well, before we get into the to this to the other segments, just recap. What was going on? Where have you been? Inquiring minds wants to know.
Dave:Yeah, I was down in uh Louisville, and that's how you pronounce that. It's not Louisville, it's not Louisville, it's Louisville. And um, you know, that's where uh Southern Seminary is. So I've been going back to school and doing some academic work there, a couple seminars and colloquium, other classes, and so a couple times a year I'll be down there for some in-person training. Most of the stuff is remote, but in order to be accredited for uh PhD in the United States, you have to have in-person learning time. So it's mandatory to you have to go to campus once once in a while.
Bob:So I heard you met a special guest when you were there and shook hands with him. Oh.
Dave:Sure.
Bob:Yeah, our listeners might know who this person is.
Dave:Yeah, I mean, Dr. Mollard visited our class, he was really um sharing about some of his experience, early days of Southern Seminary taking over the presidency, and so it was great to meet him. And he has a thing for a certain kind of cookie that's uh I think it's a caramel cookie. Um, seriously. And yeah, so maybe you should make sure we had that time for him when he was coming. Um that's his Reese's. The wild thing is, you know, here we are in New Jersey praying for Amy Humer and First Amy Huber and First Choice in the whole Scotus case, and and he knew he knew all about it, and he was actually talking about it on the briefing, and I just thought, what a small world. So we actually got a chance to pray for Amy and First Choice while we were there in our seminar, and that was kind of fun to see how the Christian circles connect. Did they know she goes to your church? Well, I had to tell them all that stuff. Okay. Yeah. So I'm kind of like, yeah, I know this lady.
Bob:Oh okay.
Dave:So you know her? Well, what?
Bob:Amy was sitting right there in your chair last week. We did uh we did a recording, which is available on our YouTube channel, our Underground Sessions podcast.
Dave:I understood that uh things went pretty well. I listened to the Clarence Thomas uh audio.
Bob:I listened to the whole thing. It seemed like I'll be surprised if it's not well, we're we're praying for a uh a very wide uh decision, so yes, hopefully it'll be uh be really good.
Dave:That seems like so far an answer to prayer, so thank God for that. So it was a good couple weeks, but it's also great to be back. Good be home.
Bob:Oh, good. All right. So you're ready for behind the pulpit? We got a couple other curveballs for you today.
Tim:I don't know that there's a choice at this point. So um we're recording. Attention, Millington Baptist Church Seniors. It is that time. Senior luncheon is this Friday, and we are so excited to welcome back the Pettit Sisters for what has been an awesome Christmas tradition where we come together and sing Christmas songs together. You're not gonna miss the December edition of the Senior Lunch for this year. Uh, make sure you come on out, invite someone you know, and bring an amazing dish to share or dessert. Uh, it's gonna be an incredible time this Friday from 12 to 2, right here at Millington Baptist Church.
Bob:Don't miss the Senior Lunch. Alrighty. Well, I I see here on this showrun order that my my producer gave me, we have a mystery segment. What is this mystery segment that I am being uh shoehorned into right here?
Tim:So uh as I was thinking about the order of our show and the way that it looks, we have this great thing at the end of our show called the theology sprint. It's a great way to wrap it up. And I feel like a lot of times, you know, sometimes we need a warm-up. We need some sort of warm-up before the show.
Bob:This is like a a this is this the stretch. We gotta work out.
Tim:We're gonna call this the weekly warm-up. Um that's that's not an in-stone name. That's a working time. I like it. I like it, I like it. Um so something that I thought would be cool is that if every episode based on the date, we pull a verse that matches up with the date, and one of you, or both of you, can give a quick teaching to warm us up theologically before we enter the show.
Bob:We have no idea what it is. Today is going to give us like something Ezra 9.
Tim:Today is today is December the 15th, so today's verse is Romans 12 15, which says, Rejoice with those who rejoice and weep with those who weep. Now it's on you to give us a quick teaching to warm us up this morning. All right.
Dave:Actually, the whole reason we're doing our blue Christmas service on Wednesday is because there is a virtue that Christians are supposed to put on, like a garment, and empathize and take perspectives of people who are suffering in this world. And so one of the ways we come alongside of our brothers and sisters is to weep with those who weep. And sometimes Christmas is not that um normal. Sometimes you have an unusual year, sometimes there's an empty chair around the table, sometimes things are a little blue. And so the happy Christmas candlelighting services and you know, the cheer, the yuletide uh carols just doesn't exactly speak to where you are in life. So the blue Christmas service this week, this Wednesday at 7:30 p.m., is our opportunity to weep with those who weep. Uh, I think you'll be blessed by coming out to that service, even if you've not experienced a loss in your life this year. So that's something that we're supposed to do. And also, not to be too much of a downer here, we are to rejoice with those who rejoice. And, you know, one of the things I've noticed spending a couple of weeks in um Nerdville doctoral studies land, is there's a weird sense of comparison and competition amongst uh Christians in ministry and especially in the academy. So um I find covetousness and jealousy to be present in this group in a way that's I think damaging. And so rejoicing with those who rejoice, what that means is um if you didn't get published, or if you didn't get the journal article peer-reviewed, or if you didn't get the promotion, or if you didn't get tenure and someone else did, um, or if you didn't get, you know, hired and someone else did, or you didn't get the award and someone else did academically, the Christian virtue is to rejoice with those who are rejoicing and come alongside of them and not to be burdened down with green envy uh towards someone else who's had something good happen in their lives. The Christian thing to do is not to disparage the fact that they've you know accomplished some success in that way. That the humble posture that a Christian should take is to actually be able to be excited and rejoice with someone who may have accomplished something that even you you weren't able to accomplish. And I think that's something we have to remember too. So they're they're equally valuable. Rejoicing with those who rejoice and weeping with those who weep. I think good reminders for Christian virtues that we're supposed to put on.
Bob:It's like he hasn't been gone, folks. Here he is, he's back. I'm warmed up, but the blood is flowing, at least in my cerebral cortex. That was this week's weekly warm-up.
Dave:And you know it's blood's flowing in my stomach. We just had some wraps that were left over from like the bridge, and they were good, but the blood is going downward right now, not up. It's funny when I when I saw the verse.
Tim:The rabbit just got to say, I said to myself, and I almost said it before you guys took over. I said, This scene this looks like a verse just soaking wet with the opportunity for some promotion for an event coming up. And Pastor Dave, I didn't have to say anything, you just gave me one less advertising.
Bob:By the way, you told me you'd not you've not been watching behind the pulpit.
Tim:So I need to get caught up big time.
Bob:You've missed Tim's interjections, which may have just happened. Tim just kind of pops on the screen and he's got some easy listening, you know, jazz music behind him. Did you catch the heavy metal one last week? No. I I actually was gonna comment. I watched it, I didn't watch all the way through, and the ones I saw still had the right after we talked about it was the men's breakfast ad, and I threw some heavy metal. You did I have to go back and watch it now. But he he pops in and he's got music behind him, and then it pops back to us with no music. What are you trying to say? Where's our music? Sorry. All right. John Bonaventura would have loved the heavy metal piece. He's he's a metalhead. Yeah, that was uh that was part of the discussion. John was mentioned last week. Uh he did. We couldn't uh we couldn't leave John out.
Tim:Hey guys, just want to tell you about something really cool that we just relaunched on our YouTube channel. The Underground Sessions podcast is back. The Underground Sessions is one of our favorite things that we do here at NBC. It's where we have conversations at the intersection of faith, culture, and politics. The Underground Sessions is a biannual time where we come together and have those discussions, but we also have a podcast where we have these conversations on a more consistent basis. Recently, the Underground Sessions podcast has looked like short strings of episodes where we've had awesome guests on to talk about some amazing topics. As we enter into our fifth season of the Underground Sessions podcast, we're still gonna have those longer form episodes with these amazing guests, but we're also gonna be more consistent with how we drop episodes by offering you a bunch of weekly short form commentaries. Every week we're gonna see Pastor Bob right here talking about something in the culture and how we should be thinking about it from a Christian world view. We're so excited to have already dropped the first episode with our very own Amy Huber as she talks about what it was like to be a part of the Supreme Court case between First Choice and the state of New Jersey. If you haven't checked that episode out yet, I encourage you to do so and then share it with someone in your family, maybe a friend or a coworker. It's a really awesome episode where we get to see how God is working through First Choice. And then stay tuned every Friday. Episodes will drop at midnight for the new Underground Sessions podcast.
Bob:All right, so now we're uh are we done with the mystery segment? Is there anything else that we did? Okay, so we're warmed up. Weekly warm-up, maybe back next week. Stay tuned. Now we're gonna move on to our segment that's always with us in the news. All right, so for the news, Pastor Dave, I don't know what you got on your docket, but I had a couple things I thought we could talk about. Uh since you've been delving into the theological depths, I thought we could talk about the uh the Kirk Cameron uh news that broke last week. Kirk Cameron, uh, I'm gonna try to find uh try to find the headline for it. Kirk Cameron went on um uh which podcast did he go on? I forget. He went on some podcasts and was questioned about his view on hell, and uh basically he says he has shifted his view on hell, now believing in annihilationism, which suggests that non-believers will exist will cease to exist rather than face eternal conscious punishment, which is a contrast from what the traditional cre uh teachings are on eternal torment. So this is interesting. I feel like a lot of people are going this way, Pastor Dave, and I wonder if you have some uh some insight into that. Why are people moving in the annihilationist direction? And uh what's going on with Kirk Cameron here? Everybody he he was he's a big guy in the Christian entertainment world, and now he's he's saying this.
Dave:I saw the the clip and and Dr. Muller actually had a segment on this on the briefing like the next morning or maybe a couple days later. And I think Kirk Cameron's statement that was his um his rubric by which he was uh deciding whether or not this was theologically accurate was the punishment must fit the crime. And the way he was packaging it was you've got crimes that are temporary, temporal, uh finite in nature, and then there being uh there be the recompense for that, the consequence for that is not a temporary, finite, um, you know, uh short punishment. It's a it's a longer um punishment or torment. And so his that was I think his main reason why he was questioning it, or I don't know if he's totally rejected it or not. Um there's answers to that, and so God is a just God, and um we believe that he is um an infinite God, and we've sinned against an infinite God. And so I think we should be really careful about number one taking our theology from Kurt Cameron, someone who has I think zero theological training, uh yet he's out there quite popular. Uh he's quite popular. Mike Seeger is uh very influential. Was that his name? Mike Seaver Growing Paints.
Bob:Uh speaking of the 1980s, we'll go Mike Seaver and Growing Paints.
Dave:So I wonder what his sister thinks of this, uh Candace Cameron, because she's also an evangelical influential figure. She's got a podcast too. As well. So I think um, you know, there is room for discussion and theological debate about this case, but let's be careful about throwing away a doctrine that many, many giants of church history have held on to for centuries and centuries and centuries. So it's worth doing some homework about this. If you want a good book, there's a book uh that's one of those Zondervan Counterpoints books called Four Views on Hell. Um and then there the Annihilationist perspective.
Bob:What's the fourth view?
Dave:So you have annihilationism, right? Sometimes it's called conditionalism, although that's not they're not identical, but they're so close. Um then there's the eternal conscious torment view, um, and then there is the universalist view, which is more like a Rob Bell kind of thing, like everybody's eventually gonna get one over, and then there's the purgatory view. Oh, purgatory, okay. There is fiery flames in your future to purge the sin and evil out of your life before you're allowed to get into the city.
Bob:Burnt to a crisp so that you'll make your way through.
Dave:Yeah. Yeah. So um my passage that I really struggle with with this is Matthew 25. So there's the sheep and the goats thing, and then Jesus is talking about the judgment, and whatever happens to the people who actually go to heaven and sit on his right hand is eternal in nature uh forever and ever. And then he uses the same exact exact language forever and ever in this place of weeping and gnashing of teeth. So it it seems like a parallel. So whatever happens to the righteous in terms of the duration of that also happens to the wicked in terms of the duration of that. Now we could debate that if you want to actually wrestle with a theologian who has the annihilationist perspective, Edward Fudge uh has a book called The Fire That Consumes, and he wrestles with the appropriate texts in the Bible that that deal with this, and he comes to different conclusions on that. So yeah. I saw that in the news. It's interesting.
Bob:Yeah, so that was in the news. The other thing that uh was grievous that happened this last week was the uh the um attack on the uh the Hanukkah attack over in Australia.
Dave:Yeah, I got a headline here. So Australian officials identify suspected Bondi Beach shooters as father and son. I don't know if you saw this video clip, but there was a heroic Islamic gentleman who actually wrestled away a rifle from one of the shooters, and I thought that was amazing, uh, the fact that he was able to do that. Um so authorities in Australia have identified the suspects in Sunday's horrific Hanukkah shooting at Bondi Beach Sydney as a 50-year-old man and his 24-year-old son. And they didn't name the suspects, but they revealed that the father had been killed at the scene of the shooting and the son remained in the hospital with critical injuries. Um this was obviously a devastating, probably anti-Semitic attack that occurred, and our hearts uh go out to our Jewish friends, especially thinking about even our own close Jewish friends across the street, Rabbi Mendy, Rabbi Mendel. They had uh one of their celebrations last night out on the street. Is it today's first day, Hanukkah? I think it was last night. Oh, because Sabbath begins the night before. Right. Okay, yeah. Okay, yeah. So that's a very, very tragic and sad way to start what is uh a special holiday for our Jewish friends. Can we talk about the video of the guy wrestling the guy the gunman down?
Tim:Sure. Sure. Is that I mean I saw It but I don't know what I have to say about it. I I just in my circle of friends, we'd call that guy an alpha. Like it looked like something out of a movie. Like he just snuck up behind him, wrestled him to the ground, and like seamlessly disarmed the guy, and then just had him there, like for the cops.
Dave:Like you have within two seconds, the weapon changed hands within two seconds. It was something like you'd see like on Jack Bauer 24. Like, no, you don't have the gun, I have the gun. Now what? Uh and that was pretty impressive.
Bob:Super courageous.
Dave:Surprised if he didn't have some training, some military training or something like that.
Bob:Perhaps he does.
Dave:Yeah. That was a very sad story coming out. Actually, there's been multiple tragic mass shooting stories this weekend. So if we're done with that, we can talk about the one at Brown. Oh, yeah. Yeah, let's do that one. So yeah. So I mean, there was a tragic shooting at Brown University up in Providence, Rhode Island. Brown, obviously, a uh friendly school to the Baptists. It was started by the Baptists.
Bob:Named after John Brown.
Dave:Brown?
Bob:No, I'm thinking of uh Yeah.
Dave:I gotta remember who it's named after. But there's there is a John Brown that's a different John Brown. So there's a shooter, and this these poor students. I don't know if you saw footage of them like huddling and sheltering in place for hours and hours and hours as they were um still in danger and the shooter was at large, and then they arrested somebody, but then they let him go. And um I haven't really watched the news this morning because I've been in meetings and stuff, but the last I checked, they didn't yet apprehend the the person who committed these hor horrific um atrocities. So certainly uh a sobering uh event happening on a college campus as well. So that was that was very difficult to to see that this weekend. A couple different terrible shootings.
Bob:It's a sobering reminder, and perhaps the reason why we need a blue Christmas service. I gave you another plug right there.
Dave:Yeah.
Bob:Come out and grieve and return to the Lord and trust in him for all things.
Dave:Yeah. So yeah, there was uh here's the the article says there was some degree of evidence that pointed to this individual, but that evidence needed to be corroborated and confirmed. The evidence now points in a different direction. So what this means is that the person of interest needs to be and should be released. So evidently um they're still looking.
Bob:So let's pray for all those who are involved. Yeah. Alright, well, if you if there's no other entries, I think it's time to uh conclude our in the new segment. We'll be back to you next week.
Tim:Concluded. Millington Baptist Church, it is back, and I'm talking about Night of Revival. We are so excited to be going into our third year where we are gonna have Night of Revival starting off our year. Night of Revival is an incredible night full of worship and preaching and testimony. It looks a little bit different than your typical Sunday service. Uh, it's just an amazing time to come together with a focus solely on worshiping the Lord. The service will take place on Friday, January the 16th, starting at 6.30. And Night of Revival is an incredible event for you to invite someone to, whether it's a friend from another church or someone in your life who doesn't know the Lord. Night of Revival is such an incredible night where we get to come together, share the gospel, and worship. That's Friday, January the 16th, starting at 6.30. You're not going to miss this year's Night of Revival.
Bob:I'm sure uh I'm sure there was some announcement that happened right now as far as NBC News. But let's move on to our other world famous segment, the Great Book War. And to that, I'll turn it over to Tim for the introduction.
Tim:It's been a little bit, and um, I am gonna have to do some reconnaissance as to what the actual score is. I believe it's seven to two in favor of Pastor Dave, but I have to look. My PowerPoint got closed, and I evidently didn't autosave, uh, so I have to do some recon on the score. But Pastor Dave is winning, I believe. Still? Even after I took like three weeks off.
Bob:Well, so here this is a good point that you're bringing up here, Tim. I I I they were not giving me any points for all the books that I recommended while you weren't here.
Tim:So so here's here's what we'll do.
Dave:I feel like you won those weeks.
Tim:As Noah and I are here, folks, the the the co-commissioners of the book war. Uh, I think in late in the evening last night, we were up until the dark watches of the morning discussing the league situation. Uh, we decided that there is a three absence maximum for uh for book war passes, and Pastor Dave has exceeded those this season. So uh moving forward next week, after the results of this week, we'll have an updated score that will be rewarding Pastor Bob for several of the missed weeks that Pastor Dave has for my participation. As someone who has spent time as a as a professor, Pastor Dave should know all about the unexcused absences that come with missing class. Uh, and this is very similar. So the commissioner, the co-commissioners have decided. I understood. And the board of governors has uh thrown down their gavel. The rules are the rules. I understand.
Bob:Nobody's above the law.
Tim:Noah, do you care to comment? No comment. Noah comments more in the meetings.
Bob:It's true. I mentioned today Noah had the shortest staff meeting report in the history of Millington Baptist Church today. When we got to the communication section, all his all his report said was owl.
Tim:I so I watched it actually morphed. I started, I watched him type in none. And then he somehow shortened it by one letter.
Bob:Three letters to four letters to three letters.
Noah:Well done. How do you feel about that, Noah? I feel good. I think it's a good record to hold.
Bob:Okay.
Dave:Noah's very productive. You just wouldn't know that based on his staff report.
Bob:He's very productive. You just would never think he was actually working.
Dave:He just doesn't have much to say about it. Next week you can just write.
Tim:If you have any questions, ask me, but I've been working. Next week you can just write no. Anyway, uh, Pastor Dave is winning the book war, and uh we are gonna continue this week. Pastor Dave, I'm sure I'm sure you'll bounce back this week.
Dave:I left it at home, but I Oh no. I have I have a oh good. All right, I have both the hard copy at home and the audio book here from Audible. So it's it's so small, Tim. I don't know if you can do anything about that, but it's uh David Wells' book, No Place for Truth. I confess I I listened to this on audio. I had 36 books that I had to read, and this one I read on my way down to Louisville. Uh it was great. So David Wells, Whatever Happened to Evangelical Theology, has a book that you should read. It's called No Place for Truth, and he basically tracks where we have come in society after the first Great Awakening until today, and what is the role of the clergy in terms of being the truth broker? And he says, uh, that's not your job anymore, which is a sad thing. But he says that basically theology used to be made up of three important parts. The first part is like, what do I believe? And the second part is like, how do I reflect on what I believe and how does that um you know form me into a person? And then the third part of theology is um, how do my values and ethics get shaped by my theology? And those are the three essential parts to anyone who believes anything. And they used to be together, and the pastor was the theologian who would help people understand that in their worldview, and that has now changed. So rather than those three things like stick together, he says they've been dismembered and they no longer go together. So a person in America today, because of modernism, because of secularism, uh, because of postmodernism, now takes what they believe from somewhere else besides their pastor, and oftentimes besides their Bible, because that's not the authority anymore. And their reflection doesn't come from their theology anymore, their reflection comes, they're they're being shaped by these other uh things in their lives, and then their ethics come from internal, uh experiential sources of authority on the inside. And those three things have been blown apart, and as a result, there's no place for truth. And so his um call in the book is to stop doing what we're doing as clergy. He says um we've been overcome by pragmatism, and that all we do now is manage and be psychologists. So we try because people don't need us for truth anymore, so they they they only need us to help them manage things. So we manage externals in life or we manage the church organization, and so that's what a pastor does, or we psychoanalyze, and that's managing the internals of people's lives, and so uh that's what pastors and clergies have be clergy people have become, uh, and it's really uh not the original calling. So he challenges us to take back the mantle of being what we were called to be as clergy, which is the the truth broker. So that's his uh book in a nutshell, but it's it's a very good digestible little history of the last 200 years, and how did we get from back then till today? He does a little bit like what Carl Truman does. Like, how did we get to the place where something my grandfather would not be able to accept that I'm a man trapped in a woman's body is somehow like universally accepted today, or not universally, but pretty much accepted today. Understood. Understood. So he does that uh, I think in a broader sense and gives a little bit of a different bent on history specific to the New England uh geography. Fantastic book, really helpful, and um um I highly recommend that, not just for clergy, but for any press anybody. So no place for truth. That's my book. Not to be confused with New York Yankees pitcher David Wells. Different David Wells. This is David F. Wells. Yeah.
Bob:He's a seminary professor, unlike uh David Wells, the left-handed pitcher who liked to eat a lot, I think. And threw a perfect.
Dave:The audio book is available on audio. So um if you're an audio, audio audible guy, I enjoyed it that way. There you go. Do you like you like uh doing some listening sometimes, not just reading?
Bob:I do. I mean, well, you know, it's sometimes I like to move, so if I need to move, listening is a little better, you know.
Dave:My only problem is like sometimes I like to write in the margin, or I'm like, oh that's good, I want to underline that. I don't do good with the audible has the some sort of bookmarking feature, and I don't really do good with tagging that stuff.
Bob:Uh what I what I ultimately prefer to do is to both have the audio and have the book in front of me if I can. And do both. Yeah. That's that's pretty good. It helps me to read quicker. Oh, yeah. Stay focused.
Dave:Much quicker. Yeah. You can blow through a book in half the time that way.
Bob:Yeah. Alright, so my entry, um, we have uh Sanctity of Human Life coming up on January the 11th. Um, and I've gotten into the uh uh bioethics, biotechnology world uh with uh with our son and our family situation, and uh I'm gonna be doing some studies on this. Um uh this book is uh ha has various contributions, uh various cont contributors, including C. Ben Mitchell, who used to be the head of the um Center for Bioethics and Human Dignity, as well as Scott Ray, the ethics professor at Talbot uh School of Theology out in California. And this book is called Biotechnology and the Human Good. And I've been making my way through this. Um I think this is a really important read because especially if you're if you're younger, uh you're in the phase of having kids, and uh and actually really when you're older, there there's a lot of uh advancements being made with uh gene therapy, um, gene editing, uh, even certain uh treatments for people that are bio uh bioethical and biotechnotech technological in nature. So this book gives you kind of a really helpful overview of these different topics. So there's a chapter on how the world is changing in biotechnology, there's a chapter on biotechnology and human dignity, uh, which we care very much about. Uh biotechnology, human advancement, and the ends of medicine. Uh so this book walks you through all these different uh topics. And um right now, if you actually if you're uh uh if you're looking at getting into the stock market, the biotechnology sphere is actually doing very, very well because there's a lot of advancements. I actually have one um one mutual fund that I have that is up about 60% in the biotech um sphere this year. So uh a lot of ethical considerations to be uh taken into account when it comes to investing in biotechnology, in participating in biotechnology, and this book I think will really help you get a really good Christian worldview on how to engage with these different topics. Um so again, biotechnology and the human good, highly recommend it right here. And my my copy is physical in front of us.
Dave:Just to bring the two worlds together here, so uh this is like really helpful. Here's a recommendation coming from a clergy person, coming from your pastor, trying to share truth with you, trying to help you make decisions about ethics. And David Wells is saying people aren't coming to clergy for direction in this area, and that's part of the problem of why we are where we are with biotechnology, because they're kind of going to other sources of authority to make decisions that are ne in need of being informed by a theologian. And so I think it's important that these kind of books and these kind of recommendations and this kind of guidance is given by us because um the Bible does speak to these very important issues.
Bob:You should silo out these disciplines when some of them need to be talking to each other.
Dave:Yeah. Or I make decisions about this, and then later on I find out, oh, there were some ethical issues with what I've done, and it would have been more advantageous to have that conversation.
Bob:And speaking of Al Moore, his uh commentary this morning was all about um IVF and surrogacy, something that people might think is doesn't have any issues, but yet he's he's speaking at it about it from a theological perspective.
Dave:You know, uh yesterday you remember when Katie Faust was on Peterson's podcast talking about um surrogacy and the issue that I think she really pinged him on because he's friends with Dave Rubin, is like gay adoption. I thought that she like had him back on his heels in that part of the podcast. I don't think he was prepared for her level of expertise and pushback. Yeah, and I don't think he had thought as in depth about it as she did. And so yesterday, Peterson actually posted a video of her talking about uh adoption in terms of a homosexual marriage and how that might be uh something you want to think about because Katie Faust basically said on that podcast, when you choose to do that, um what you're a asking to normalize is parental loss. You're asking that child to essentially deal with the loss of one of their child has lost their mother or their child has lost their father, and you're normalizing it as if it's not a loss. And I don't think Peterson really thought about that, but she did, obviously. So he clipped that thing and like reposted it yesterday. Oh, okay. And then she commented it on his I guess I think it was X, and she was like, Oh, thank thanks for the show again, and then she was engaging with other people about it who were advocating for it, and then she was kind of going back and forth with them, and she's really, really quick at the wit. Uh so you can watch her interact with some of these kind of efforts.
Bob:But the point is that there's a lot of on-the-ground issues when it comes to this this sphere right here. So um this book will be a good primer for you if you want to think about it uh in depth. There you go.
Dave:What's the publishing house there?
Bob:Uh this was um Georgetown University Press. Yeah.
Tim:One of the most civilized book war battles to date.
Dave:Yeah, we used to be much more harsh with each other. This is probably me. Brent Waters.
Bob:There you go. Okay. Look, see, even Dave is reading my book right now, so we'll see what happens.
Dave:I'm wondering if I'm gonna be in agreement with some of these articles to be based on that. Uh Pittsburgh, a Pittsburgh guy and Garrett.
Bob:So I'll have to read it to see. We'll see. Well, a couple of the guys that have written are definitely strong evangelicals, but we'll see. We'll see what the other other folks write in here.
Dave:By the way, Andrew Walker was teaching a seminar right next to mine. Okay. Yeah, so I'd walk by him every day.
Bob:Interesting. How was that? Because he wearing a bow tie?
Dave:He's every everybody's dressed up over there, man. Yeah. It's another level. You don't just show up in sweatpants. It's that's something that's part of the culture. I mean, I brought several jackets and I was prepared for this. Okay. But in the second week of classes with Greg Allison said it was a little more casual. But the first week I felt like, okay, I gotta be on my best behavior.
Bob:You felt like you should have been in a three-piece suit?
Dave:Yeah, I don't even have a three-piece suit. I got a two-piece suit. That's all I got. So have you ever seen Moeller and Aiken go back and forth about this? No. So Aiken's the president of Southeastern, and he's like super chill. He's like, uh, who's that senator in Pennsylvania that's always wearing the hoodie? He's like that. Oh, John Fetterman. Yeah, he's like Fetterman. He just like doesn't care. And Al Moeller's like, what are you doing? You're degrading to the office of the president at this seminary. And so the two of them kind of go head to head about the dress code. It's funny.
Bob:Yeah, I bet it is. I bet it is. All right. Well, there you go. We recommend you decide. Boom.
Tim:Okay, guys, one last time. The sermon recap portion of our show today is brought to you by the City Relief Packing Party. The day is almost here. We are almost at Saturday, December the 20th, where we will be packing 2,000 hygiene kits to give to City Relief for those struggling with homelessness. We are still blown away by the generosity of our congregation to help us pack these kits. We originally set out with the goal to pack a thousand with a challenge for us to pack 1,500. And before we knew it, we were ordering an additional thousand kits. So we're going to be able to pack 1,950 fully stocked hygiene kits. And with the extra supplies left over, we're going to get to 2,000 mixed match kits. We're so grateful for your generosity, but now we just need people to pack. Last year we had an amazing event where we had so many people come out to pack just over 600 hygiene kits. Well, we need a crowd similar to that to pack just about 2,000. This Saturday, December the 20th, from 9 o'clock to 11 o'clock in the morning. We're going to be having this event. If you're hungry, come a little early for breakfast. We're going to be starting that at 8:30. We're going to have some incredible coffee from Barrister Coffee House. We're going to have hot chocolate candy canes. We're going to have a presentation about further ways you can get involved with City Relief here at NBC. It's just going to be an amazing time. Christmas music, wear your Christmas sweaters. We're going to have a great time of Christmas cheer here at NBC. City Relief Packing Party this Saturday. Come on out.
Bob:Alrighty. So we've come to our sermon recap segment of the uh of the podcast. And uh, I'll give you uh maybe 60 seconds to recap what you talked about yesterday. And uh I got some questions then, Pastor Dave. Okay.
Dave:Isaiah chapter 58 is a well-known chapter about the true fast and how people sometimes engage in religious activities, thinking that they're going to be pleasing to God, but yet they're missing God's very heart. Because religious external obligations do not uh in any way uh replace the call of God to be about his priorities, which are caring for the very people that are made in his image. And so we cannot think that things are okay with God and us if things are not okay with us and our neighbors. And so it's a very convicting passage about justice. Specifically, the two terms that are used there are righteousness and justice. This is what God is concerned about. About, and he's calling his people, he's rebuking his people by telling them, I'm rejecting the kind of worship that you're offering, and I'm going to tell you the kind of worship that would be pleasing to me, which would be uh going out and doing the kind of justice that I'm calling you to do, caring for the marginalized, caring for the poor, caring for what's called the quartet of the vulnerable, the widow, the orphan, the immigrant, and the poor. And I think Isaiah 58 is one of those heavy passages that really um recenters us and helps us understand the calling of God on the people of God to care for the children of God who are being mistreated sometimes on an individual level, sometimes on a family level, and sometimes on a society systemic level. And um Isaiah 58 reminds us that this is not a uh a woke thing to talk about caring for those who are mistreated in society, that this is at the very heart of what it means to be a follower of Jesus. And so uh convicting passage. Uh, we had a little fun by putting together a drama to try to draw out some of the tension in this conversation. And it was um a difficult passage, not so much difficult in terms of like this is hard to understand, but a difficult passage to uh convey because it's very convicting and it's very unsettling. It was unsettling to me, and if it was unsettling to you, uh frankly, I think that's actually a good thing. So, my opinion is if you're a preacher and you preach on Isaiah 58 and nobody feels uncomfortable or unsettled, you probably didn't do a good job preaching Isaiah 58 because it is a very weighty passage. And so that's kind of the overview, but I'd love to talk in about any of the details that we want to get into.
Bob:So maybe maybe one of the things I would ask you is what as you were studying it, what were some of the things that surprised and challenged you personally? Like what were some of the specifics as you prepared the uh as you prep prepared the sermon?
Dave:Yeah, you know, I think we all uh have different bents in terms of uh areas of interest in ministry, and I think sometimes that can be out of balance. Uh a a disciple of Jesus uh should be following God in a number of different areas. So, you know, one of those areas is you know, knowing his word and personally spending time devotionally with him, one of those areas is fellowship and making sure that you're known and uh you're in community. Uh you know, one of those areas is finding your spiritual gift and then serving and using that gift. But there is an area of following Jesus which is very external and it is um very outwardly focused and uh very much um a posture that is towards those who uh are in are in need of ministry. And I think it was challenging to think, okay, where in my life am I making room for that uh aspect of following the Lord Jesus? So I think it's important to um keep that in mind. You know, we have uh people in uh in in and all around us that are easily forgotten, and um we need to make sure that we're uh being obedient to the Lord in those areas as well.
Bob:What do you think are some of the the common barriers that people have that prevent them from living out Isaiah 58 on a on a daily basis?
Dave:You know, I think it's um uncomfortable. I think sometimes it's scary. You know, if you go on the relief bus and you camp out in Newark, it's not an area where you feel completely at ease. You're probably a little bit more circumspect, you're probably a little bit more on edge. It can be frightening, it can be anxiety-producing to go to the places where the needy are and to care for them. Um some of the barriers would be more self-focused type of um behaviors, mentality. Some of the some of the more um cognitive barriers would be like, oh, you know, that's the social justice warrior's job. Um, you know, that's not really our call as Christians. We're we just have to share the verbal proclamation of the evangel, the gospel, uh, which is a an important part of following Jesus, but it's not the only part, right? So there's gospel proclamation, gospel demonstration. And I think it's uh dangerous to not remember the very on the ground kind of ministry that the Lord calls us to. So we can be like functionally Gnostics, meaning uh we think that everything's all about what's going on in our heads, and we have this sort of disdain for whatever's happening in the body and whatever's happening on the ground on earth. Like, so what's really important is these ethereal ideas that are happening in the in the spiritual realm. Whereas the Lord, who in his incarnate form took on flesh and walked amongst us, uh, conveyed it is actually how we treat the people in the body which is important to him and part of what he measures in terms of us being able to follow him. Those are some barriers. I don't know if you think more.
Bob:Yeah, I I I think I think you hit on a number of really good ones. Um how would you um uh I I guess maybe thinking applicationally, how would you how having studied it, how would you voice who is Isaiah writing to? Like how hermeneutically, how do you is he just writing to Israel, the specific covenant people, and then how does that play out to the church? Like what what's what's prescriptive in the passage for us?
Dave:I mean, the people of God in Isaiah's day in 700 BC were being disobedient to their call to uh bring about righteousness and justice for the marginalized in their society, but there's a pretty easy theological bridge that comes right over into the New Testament. So we're now the you know the children of Abraham, Galatians chapter 3. We are the true Israel of God. We are the ones who are now fulfilling God's purpose for his people on this earth right now. And so to the degree that those commandments are repeated, reinforced, principalized in the New Testament, we follow those commandments too. And they are. They are. I mean, Jesus in Matthew 25 makes it pretty clear. Tim Eukas talked about this on Vision Sunday that, you know, when I was naked, you clothed me, when I was hungry, you fed me, when I was thirsty, you gave me something to drink. When we do that to the least of these, my brethren, we are doing it unto Christ. That's our service to God. And I think the New Testament actually, if you really look at it, it sprinkles this reality all it's hard to miss. It's really kind of everywhere. I don't know. Tim, you want to talk about that?
Tim:Yeah, sure. And I I think that um, yeah, I think that's something that you know we're we're called to do in in in a couple ways. I something that um I always think of when I think about this is um when Sydney Bowie, who used to work for City Relief, he doesn't anymore. Um, but he came and preached a couple years ago, maybe maybe it was a year, I think his not his most recent sermon he did on covetousness, but it was the one before that, like two years ago. Um he talked about how you know it a lot of times we um we we mean we do a lot like financially, we'll we'll give and we'll sit, but um it what makes a difference is is actually going out and and serving and being the physical hands and feet of Jesus. And sometimes we need to um go out and and put ourselves in positions to do that because a lot of times, you know, I know for for a lot of people who live in our church, it's not right in front of our face, you know. You know, we're not that close to we're close enough to Newark, but we don't live there. Um we're we're blessed to live in a very nice area, and we we do have some of that uh uh uh you know homelessness around us, but really where it is, like we need to go out and we need to put ourselves in a position to do that. Um and that and that's why I'm so excited about you know having these opportunities to go out as a church together and serve with City Relief and um you know be be on the bus, go out into New York City. Um you can go on our website and sign up for those opportunities right now. And then this Saturday, the packing party, like that is such a huge, you know, it's really cool. I saw last year um City Relief put out a number, a graphic on their on their social media. They received a total of just over 8,000 hygiene kits and uh donations last year. And we're gonna start the year off for them with 2,000. So that's almost a quarter of what they received last year off the bat. Um, so you know, doing stuff like that and you give being able to give out like really nice hygiene kits to those um out on the street is is such a big deal, and it means a lot to them. Um and you know, what City Relief does, and it creates a safe space for people to come and sit and eat and feel seen and build connection. And and then when you go out and serve, you're not you're not just giving them a meal, you're not just giving them a hygiene kit, you're not just um you know, giving them socks, you're you're you're allowing them to feel like a human being because so many times that's not what they feel like. You know, those who are struggling with homelessness, they they don't feel like a human being uh because most people don't give them the time of day. So when you go out and serve and actually talk with them and build community with them, you're allowing them to feel like someone who's made in the image of God. And I think that's that's so important, and that's why I'm so excited about get the opportunity for us to go out and serve with them this year.
Dave:You know, I remember one time, yeah, I didn't have much money when I was in my twenties, but uh good a good um thing that you're you're constantly um well let me put it this way I would interact with a lot of homeless people in Dallas because uh the part of the Dallas where I lived was very very urban, very it was, you know, they were just everywhere. So I remember um giving this one guy like a piece of chicken, and I didn't have like cash, you know, he wanted cash, but I had my lunch, right? So I had like you know, fried chicken, aluminum foil, all you know, night. I was gonna eat it, but I was like, you know what? Um I don't have any money for you, bro. But if if you'd like this, like I had that, and he was very, very grateful. You know, he actually quoted scripture back to me. Yeah, and so you tend to think, you know, wow, you know, maybe these guys um are closer to the Lord than I am. A good friend of mine, Jerry and I used to go to McDonald's and buy one dollar sausage McMuffins, um, and we'd get like 50 bucks each worth of McMuffins, and then we go down to this place called Boxtown, which was like tents uh under a bridge where you know a lot of people were living, and we would just like walk up to the tent, say, Hey, you hungry, and uh, you know, give out these little sausage McMuffins and a Gospel of John track and try to be a light in those areas. I kind of miss those times. I don't feel like there's a real huge outlet in my life for those kinds of ministries anymore. And I feel like um I I want to experience that in a more frequent way, and so that's uh something that I've was thinking about. How can I apply this right now in my in my life? Because it's uh it's a wonderful opportunity. Um and it can be difficult because it's uncomfortable oftentimes.
Bob:That's good. Well, um, for discussion purposes, I I asked uh ChatGPT to help me put together a chart. Oh. So I got a chart here. Oh, this is a GPT chart. Uh well, I I gave it the prompt, but I asked it basically, because I think when naturally what people will think about when they hear Isaiah 58, and part of the reason why I asked you who's this written for, because some of the debate is like, is this is this prescriptive for the church to go out and do, or what's the role of the state? So I asked it to give me a uh contrast between uh a more progressive reading and more conservative reading of Isaiah 58, and in the middle I asked it to to float in some Abraham Kuyper, one of my uh my favorite theologians. So this is the chart that's up here, and uh maybe we can just talk through this right here. So the on the issue of their view of I fifty Isaiah 58, uh, you know, let's say a more progressive person might say this is a structural mandate, you know, for the government to do. Abraham Kuyper uh has this view about different different spheres, the sphere sovereignty, um, and this should be something that gives you a moral vision across those. And the conservative one would say that that's uh this is a moral indictment. So, uh you know, i is this is this is Isaiah 58 written to the government of the time or is it written to the people of God in terms of uh how they've not been living this out, right? Now in the Old Testament, that's sort of um, you know, they're so they're sort of blended together. Um so you have to kind of extrapolate that out for the for the uh role for the church. The second issue is who's the primary who's the primary agent that actually carries this out? So in in a more typical progressive view, it's the state. So this is where you'd say, well, I I'm giving money, I pay taxes, and the state is the one who takes care of the poor. Um I hate when you got that. We have to move around here. Uh Abraham Kuyper says you got multiple spheres, and then uh the conservative person would uh highlight the individual and the community, right? And then in in de definitions of justice, let's just say a more progressive person might say there needs to be material equality. Everybody needs to have equal outcomes, right? For for true justice to have happened. Abraham Kuyper talks about how there's a there's a right ordering in society, and then um you know a conservative might say this is really about about action that the person is um you know is is taking wise actions in terms of how they how they live and the decisions they make. Um role of coercion. So uh typically on the more progressive side, you would say the state should should should should force you to give, right? You you need to pay your taxes to help take care of the poor, great welfare systems and uh such. But of course, in the Kuiperian and the conservative view, that's that needs to be much more limited, right? Not that you shouldn't do it, but it shouldn't be coerced by by the state. And then at the bottom they put down these risk factors. So in the progressive view, this can lead to statism, uh more of a uh a top-down authoritarian control. Uh Kuiper will talk about you know bureaucracies getting created, and then uh um in the conservative view, and this is the the main criticism they get, is that there's a moral neglect. So it's great that you say that you should help, but you really don't. And so you're you're kind of staying one thing but not doing another thing. Um so I wonder how does this, how does Isaiah, how can different people apply Isaiah 58 when when we think about some of the some of the modern debates of our day? I mean, affordability is a big debate right now. Is that is that the role of the state, the church? Does Isaiah 58 apply to that? Um I don't know. Maybe we can talk through this right here. Uh that's what I was kind of running through my mind as we were talking about Isaiah 58. Who who who's got the role here? How does this apply to certain certain uh situations?
Dave:Do you remember the ordered loves thing? Like, I think it was Augustinian, where he talked about like, yes, okay, so how do you um prioritize who you're gonna be uh making sure is okay? And like so there's this sort of concentric circles that you built. I gotta my first priority is I gotta make sure my own family responsibilities are taken care of. And then after that, I you know I start thinking about the broader community, and after that I start, you know, so I think that comes into play here in terms of personal responsibility, in terms of the biblical role of the state. I think the state does have a very uh clear mandate in the scripture to restrain evil. So to set up an unjust system is a state problem. Um so I think promoting things like social order and making sure there's fair um opportunities is a state thing, right? Um protecting the vulnerable who are often exploited by the the those who are more powerful, those who are wealthy from exploitation is a state thing. Protecting them from violence is a state thing. Um that's really a function of uh coercion, right? But in terms of I guess this would be in the biblical terms, like the Ministry of Mercy. In terms of the Ministry of Mercy, and there's a Keller has a book titled Ministry of Mercy, which I haven't read, but maybe he would go into this.
Bob:Ministries of mercy, yeah, I think it's Ministries of Mercy, yeah.
Dave:Yeah, I think I think we've lost our calling as the church to to make that be the church's job. Um I suppose I'm in favor of the state providing some kind of a safety net and preventing utter destitution, right? Um but I I would love to see the church take up the cause uh to to be the body and to be the witness, to be the light, to be the lighthouse to actually bring about flourishing in society uh through these acts of love, j mercy, and justice.
Bob:But I wonder if the if has the church lost an urgency to do some of those things because they think maybe the state is doing it or it's uh you know it's what? Getting back to the barrier question. You know, it you you look at uh uh hospitals and ministries that have been established over the years, and a lot of times it was churches that that did that, you know. How many hospitals are named after after churches? And ha have we lost an urgency to do that in in the United States? I see people doing that overseas, but maybe not so much here. And is Isaiah 58 isn't that a call for us to think about ways that we could do those things and investing our money um there to help? Mm-hmm.
Dave:Yeah, I mean uh we have this conversation in our home a lot because my wife is like a public health person, and so you know, she thinks about you know who in society is um in need of structural support and how we can best do good uh from a coercive state side. And you know, I think that there's some unnecessary disparaging of that from evangelical Christians who claim that the government doesn't have any role there. I don't know that that's really the best way to think about it. But I also do think sometimes it's a lot easier for let's say a 22-year-old um kid to say, yeah, we should be uh taking care of all of the the poor, and everybody should just have uh you know health insurance or whatever. And what you're really doing is you're actually saying somebody else should have to pay. Right? So you're you're as soon as you make a law, as soon as you make a policy, you're you're now you're forcing someone to receive a service, which you're forcing someone else to give a service um that perhaps doesn't work as well in a in a system that isn't so built on incentives. Like the capitalist system is built on incentives where people give a service for to trade um to trade resources, as opposed to a more socialistic system, is that someone is compelled to give a service uh without the the same incentives system. And sometimes that can become a disincentive for people to actually um contribute to society in ways that are as productive, and so it ends up sometimes backfiring. In fact, that that that has been a problem with communist systems that they're they're they have removed sort of incentives that you would think in the beginning, forcing our society to have these free services and care in that way would actually produce a more flourishing society, but it ends up actually sometimes. Backfiring uh on you and and um it's worth thinking all the way through in terms of what what would be the best actual plan for the most amount of people and it's a very complicated situation. That's an interesting chart you built. Yeah. So putting as a chart lover, I was I was intrigued. There you go. Colorful.
Bob:Well, just just to maybe just to give an example for the healthcare and the human need, you know, if you were if you were more typically more on the progressive side, the argument is that healthcare is is a right, right? That there should be universal state provision, there should be strong government control. On the other side, if you're a conservative, usually they frame it as healthcare is a good but not a right, and there should be an emphasis on market competition, personal responsibility, charities, things like that. Um Abraham Kuyper would reject both of those, and he would say there should be baseline access for essential care, um, but there still should be some kind of public safety nets as well as private providers, religious hospitals, things like that. Um, you know, and justices including care for the vulnerable, but but not erasing what he calls moral moral pluralism in the sense that you know there may be some ethical considerations depending on your um uh your conscience. So I'd be uncomfortable calling it a right in that sense. So I think I like Kuiper's blended uh so anyway, it's it's a it's a uh it's an indicting passage. And I think that part of the problem that you're getting at is that if you're a Christian and you just dismiss Isaiah 58, you you can't. I mean, there there's an application here for the church to go out and to do justice and to love mercy, like our our skit at the end uh exhorted us to do. Um but what does that look like for you in your in your situation and your community? So what what else would you add? What are uh am I missing anything, Tim? Noah, you guys want to pop any questions in here?
Dave:Uh I don't I don't think so. Great application is to come out Saturday and be part of our city relief packing party. There we go.
Tim:We uh we need help. We have 2,000 we have nine one 1,950 fully stocked kits, and then we'll have some extra over materials for some of the things to make around 2,000 um kits in total.
Dave:So Bob, I don't know if you remember, but when we were with Tim Mackey discussing Isaiah 58, we had a long and spirited small group time, and there was a couple African American brothers in my group, and they were really sick and tired of the quote unquote empathy thing. Um and there was one black brother who just basically said, I'm tired of you crying. I don't know, I know I want to see you crying anymore. Come to a school board meeting, do something, you know. Uh it's not enough just to feel pity or to feel empathy. Uh you got to get involved. And I think Isaiah 58 is very um applicational. It's not abstract, it's not theoretical. This is like, how are you gonna show up and be part of the problem? Remember that guy?
Bob:I do. I thought that was really, really helpful.
Dave:Yeah.
Bob:Which which means that I don't want to hear anything about how you got a you got a nail appointment for your city of relief packing party. You need to be there. Show up. Let's pack some nails. Cancel those stuff. Cancel those nail appointments. Cancel those nail appointments. All right. Well, good job. Well, you're preaching again this week, and we're covering what, Isaiah 61, 61 this week?
Dave:Yep. This week will be the final servant song. Uh some people don't call it a servant song, though, do they? Some people say there's only four.
Bob:It's debatable, but let's I I love Isaiah 61, so let's let's keep it in there.
Dave:This is about the job description of the coming Messiah, the one who the Spirit will anoint, the one who the Ruach will come and uh pour spiritual oil over his head and anoint him to do certain tasks. I believe there's seven tasks that this Messiah will come and do. And, you know, I have a job description. You have a job description. Everybody has a job description. What would, if the Messiah had a job description, what would it look like? Well, Isaiah 61 actually is a pretty good start. So um it's an exciting passage. It'll be the Sunday before Christmas, which works out really well, and um we will uh continue on in our journey from ruin to redemption. We're getting towards the end. There's only a couple more sermons to go. We are. It's hard to believe we made it to chapter 61 already. So it's been it's been a journey, man.
Tim:Yeah. It's been a good journey.
Bob:All right.
Tim:All right, guys. It is time to get to today's theology sprint. But before we do that, I want to tell you about something cool and exciting happening here at NBC, and that is our young adult ministry. Our young adult ministry is growing day by day, and we are so excited to see that growth. And there's no better way to celebrate the growth of our young adult ministry here, along with the birth of our savior than the young adult Christmas party. The Young Adult Christmas Party will take place December the 20th at 4 p.m. And it's gonna be a potluck. So bringing out a dish, a dessert, some drinks, uh, it's gonna be a great time. There's gonna be food and dress warm because weather permitting, we're gonna go outside for a bonfire after we eat. It's gonna be an amazing time of fellowship and good food and time spent around the campfire. So if you're interested in that or you know a young adult that's looking for something and may be interested in that Christmas party, make sure you DM our young adult Instagram page, MBC underscore YA, or email the church office and we'll get you all the information you need about where you're going to come to our Christmas party. You're not gonna want to miss it.
Bob:All right, so I think we're on to the theology sprint. We've done the warm-up. We've uh, you know, we're I think we're ready to kind of hit that last leg. What do we got here? Let me ask hundred yard dash.
Tim:Are you do you feel more prepared for this theology sprint now that you've had a warm-up?
Dave:Oh, we had a we had some pretty deep discussion today. The 1215 thing? That was the warm-up. Yeah. That was a long warm-up.
Bob:Should we should we get up and stretch?
Noah:Noah. Some mental warm-up. Take us there. All right. So our theology sprint for this week is should Christians support or oppose the death penalty?
Bob:Well, that's uh I haven't thought about that one recently. Um I can start. Do you have do you have some thoughts?
Dave:Yeah. A lot of times people generally confuse the idea of taking life into an umbrella category as if it's uh all the same. And so they say, well, if you're pro-life, then to be consistently pro-life, you would also have to be against capital punishment. I think you're making a category error there. So what the Bible prohibits is not necessarily taking life, it prohibits taking the life that is innocent. And so capital punishment was instituted in the scriptures by God, given to Noah in Genesis chapter 9. And it was not about devaluing life, it was actually about upholding the value of life and protecting the image of God. And so God tells Noah, if someone's life is taken, then as a result, um, their blood should be shed as well. And that was the high value that God was putting on human life. It is then uh repeated as a command inside of the Mosaic law. And then if you come over into the New Testament, even though Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount does have some statements that can be taken in a non-violent way and seem to push against the idea of ever um using force, coercive force, when you read other passages like Romans 13, it says that the government has been given the sword by God as his servant, as his deacon, in order to uphold justice. And the sword in those days was the power of capital punishment. So, New Testament ethic, Paul is saying that the government does have the ability to take human life in certain circumstances, in certain extreme, very grave circumstances. Now, I think it's um an open debate as to whether or not this is appropriately being administered in our society. But the Christian tradition has a long history of of the just war theory and the circumstances that can come together whereby human life can be taken. And so there is a case that can be made for a Christian who is uh advocating for sometimes what is the just taking of life, um, especially in terms of self-defense. But in terms of capital punishment, it is in in it is in the Bible as something that um can be justified, I would say. Now, if if you feel differently about that and you feel like in our day and age, we should use the prison system as a way uh to rehabilitate and to show mercy and to you know work with people in a different sense to to um protect society in that way. I would be willing to have that debate with you. I think there's good, godly people on both sides of that debate who feel differently. Um but I I don't think we should say in a simplistic way um that either yes or no. I think the the conversation's very complicated. Um and capital punishment is there not to necessarily just uh think about the person that's committed the crime, but to also protect society from further crimes being committed by that same person. So you're you are valuing life by in a sense um removing the threat to life in the l last resort effort in that in that legislation. So I don't know if you would add anything to that.
Bob:So you're saying you're you're saying that in certain cases this is this is a warranted effort. Yeah, I think I'd be there too. Um I think there's probably four different categories. Some people are strongly opposed, some people are strongly insupportive. Um I don't think I'm there. I think I'm more in this kind of more like a moderate supporting um in these certain cases based on the things you you you said. Uh biblical precedents, Romans 13 is a big one, and then of course, you know, the ordering of morality. Um but yeah, people tend to think one or the other like kind of like you know in in your um in your skit yesterday, the whole idea of justice and mercy and some some things need to be held together, you know. If you if you get rid of this and you're all mercy, then you're missing the the fulfillment of justice. Yeah. But if you're all justice and no mercy, then you know you might be pushing the envelope too much.
Dave:Nowadays with DNA evidence, uh it is less and less likely that some would be well someone would be wrongfully um punished because of a crime. But before, um you could make a case that because the the bar and the the the legal bar is only it's not beyond a shadow of a doubt, it's not even beyond reasonable doubt, it's it's just based on the preponderance of the evidence, this person is innocent or guilty, then you could potentially have somebody who didn't actually commit the crime face the death penalty in an unjust way. And so to protect them from potentially that situation, you can make the case that that should be removed. And that has happened. People have uh wrongfully been um had their lives taken in and that's unjust as well. So there's a lot to talk about with that. I think that's probably um worthy of a maybe it sounds like a whole uh or a whole underground sessions podcast.
Bob:So there we go. We'll have to come back to that one.
Tim:Question always makes you think of the uh the movie A Time to Kill based on the John Grisham novel. If you guys have ever seen that, I have not. Young uh Sandra Bullock, Matthew McConaughey, and Samuel Jackson.
Bob:All right, all right, all right.
Tim:Great movie. There we go. Definitely a hard watch, though.
Dave:I feel like I kind of remember this, but I don't remember the premise. We can talk about it later.
Bob:Not to go too far into the in the news, but the uh Charlie Kirk's killer was just arraigned recently, so that's gonna be a big discussion point, I think, for Christians. So maybe we should do something on this. Um yeah, we'll see. It's gonna be coming up.
Dave:All right, we'll talk more later, Noah. So to be continued. Yeah. That's always a good question.
Bob:How about you pick something that can be answered in 60 seconds? What do you think? All right. Well, thanks for joining us from behind the pulpit today, 12 15, 25. Me and Pastor Dave are signing off. We'll see you next week on Christmas. Oh, that's right. Here we go.