Andrew Strain

In a packed episode, the team reacts to headlines ranging from NBA betting scandals to AI superintelligence and global persecution of Christians—including a sobering look at the church in Nigeria. Pastor Dave and Pastor Bob also discuss Joe Rogan’s recent comments about attending church, sparking a deeper conversation about why the local church still matters in today’s culture. Add in a World Series rooting interest (for Don Mattingley!), a Louvre heist update, and a spirited theology sprint on cults, and you’ve got a full slate of news, worldview, and witty banter.

But the heart of this episode centers on a powerful interview with Andrew Strain, a friend of the church and modern-day Hezekiah. Andrew shares his remarkable story of liver failure, a life-saving transplant, and how God showed up—clearly and providentially—through every twist and turn. His testimony is raw, moving, and filled with hope for anyone facing fear, illness, or the unknown. Whether you’re here for theology, story, or a few laughs about blacklight chalk and grapes in church, this episode has something for everyone.

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This episode contains a short excerpt (approximately 1 minute and 22 seconds) from The Joe Rogan Experience for the purpose of commentary and discussion on public religious expression and cultural influence. This use qualifies as fair use under U.S. copyright law (17 U.S. Code § 107) as it is transformative, limited in scope, and used for non-commercial, educational, and critical commentary purposes. No branding, music, or monetized content from the original source is included.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction
• 2:14 In The News
• 24:38 The Great Book War
• 31:39 Audience Questions
• 41:40 Interview with Andrew Strain
• 1:08:25 Sermon Recap
• 1:31:14 Theology Sprint

Transcript

Bob: 0:00

Hey everybody, welcome to Behind the Pulpit for October the 26th, 2025. We're so glad you've been sprinting with us uh through the fall as we began back in September making our way through the book of Isaiah, talking about all the things that are happening in our world. It has been an action-packed last few weeks. Uh Pastor Dave, what's what's been catching your eye? How are things going for you? How are you enjoying Isaiah? I like your quarter zip over there, by the way.

Dave: 0:27

The one thing that's catching my eye right now is it's not October 26th, just so you know. It's October 27th.

Bob: 0:33

I went back at you know what? We're falling back this week, and so that's probably why I would be able to do that. I'm still dealing with the with the Aztec timekeeping, so you know. That's how it is. Yes.

Dave: 0:45

Things are fine. I say it's great. Things are good. We got foliage.

Bob: 0:49

I say it is great. You know, yesterday I went up and took my daughter up for a trip to see the fall foliage up by the Delaware water gap. I saw. And uh I was I was told the trees were on fire. By the way, Tim, I heard your band of brothers was uh was hiking up by the uh the water gap yesterday. Is that is that true?

Tim: 1:15

Yes, we were also up there. We took a group of seven, technically ten, including myself and two leaders.

Bob: 1:19

And you did Tammany, you did the Jersey side. We did the Jersey side, which is uh which is taller and of course better.

Tim: 1:25

Yes, it is. I've hiked both uh a couple times, and the the jersey side is better, but typically more crowded. Yesterday was packed. Oh, really? A lot of people both all the lots were full.

Bob: 1:34

Some uh yeah, it was very it was very crowded. Oh my goodness. Well, I got I haven't done it in a while. I gotta maybe do it as it gets uh warmer or cooler. Who knows? Is it better to hike when it's warm or cool? What do you think?

Dave: 1:45

Uh 55 degrees is ideal.

Bob: 1:47

I mean, I like the I like the cold, but cold and not snowy. Well, yeah, yeah, not snowy. That'd that'd be bad. Yeah. All right. Well, we we have a wonderful episode planned for you today. We got an interview with uh Andrew Strain later in the episode. Uh we're gonna do uh uh a highlight of all the things Pastor Dave did not get into his sermon yesterday, and of course we have the showdown, the one the only great book war. So we're glad you're joining us. Buckle up. Uh we're gonna dive right into our well, actually, we're not gonna dive right in because I gotta talk about one of our sponsors, right, Tim? Yes. All right, so the first sponsor of today's episode is the night of revival. The night of revival happens, well, you we never quite know when it happens, but this this time it's gonna happen on Friday, January 16th. The date has been set. Uh, we're gonna be singing, we're gonna be praising, we're gonna be maybe getting some people baptized, we're gonna be hearing testimonies. Uh this is the the way to kick off the new year, January 16th, Friday. Uh that's a Friday night, and it's gonna begin at you got the camera in front of me. What's the time over there? 630, sorry. 6:30, 6.30 p.m. Be there, be square. Is that like a chalk, like a black light art chalk, chalk drawing there, man? It looks like the upside down right there. Yes. Hopefully there's gonna be no demogorgons. No demagorgons at the night of revival. We're gonna be casting out the demogorgons at the night of revival. Yes. There we go.

Dave: 3:07

First of all, is Stranger Things ever gonna come out with another season? Or is that Thanksgiving? Thanksgiving.

Tim: 3:13

Like less than a month, Pastor Dave. It's Thanksgiving, two episodes on Thanksgiving, two episodes on Christmas Eve, and two episodes on New Year's Eve. I'm so excited.

Bob: 3:22

Are they doing a um oh first half, second half, or is that the whole season?

Tim: 3:27

That's the whole it's it's it's I believe it's it's six like hour and a half long episodes. So it's like six movies they're putting out over the course of like about a month.

Dave: 3:37

My daughter was like showing me this three-dimensional architectural plan for a gingerbread house with the Stranger Things house. She wants to construct it and have the the dude in the attic with the tentacles and all that stuff.

Bob: 3:52

Okay, this is crazy. By the way, have you caught up with House of David yet or what?

Dave: 3:56

No, but I did see episode three. I think there's two more to get caught up on.

Bob: 4:00

Maybe one more episode five dropped last night, so you're a couple of times.

Dave: 4:04

Yeah, I did see three, and we're taking a lot of liberties here.

Bob: 4:08

Yeah, season two is doing a lot more liberties. So they did this uh finally, finally, they did um Ishbo Sheth is doing a lot of stuff that I don't remember from the Bible. By the way, I will say though, my daughter, uh, every time I've taken her out to school, she's like, I want to listen to David. So I've been listening to 1 Samuel 15 to the end of 2 Samuel quite a bit. And uh I I I was um You say listening, like the Bible on audio? Yeah, the streetlights. Streetlights, yeah. We listen to streetlights. And um I was uh I was picking up on some things I didn't notice before about how the narrative arcs go and Ishbusheth, man, he plays a big role, and then uh you know, he his connection with Abner and Mefibosheth, uh who I'm thinking about using for this disability series, he comes up quite a bit in those narratives.

Dave: 4:51

So yeah. I gotta get caught up.

Bob: 4:54

It's it's quite bloody too, by the way. Lots of people getting stabbed and killed and heads cut off.

Dave: 4:59

Well, this is David the warrior phase, right? It's true. Yeah, it's true. Did he get a chance to marry the right lady? That's that's where I was.

Bob: 5:06

This is what was interesting to me about what they did. They're doing a whole lot of world building, and so that hence the liberties. Um but the the what I I forget which episode it was where he offered over Mirab, and if you read the scriptures, immediately David says, I can't, I can't uh who am I to marry your daughter-in-law? And he does do that, but many episodes later, or marry your daughter, right?

Dave: 5:30

Well, there was a thing where he has to go get the Philistines in a nice way.

Bob: 5:37

Um, I know what you're talking about. 200 body patterns. Doesn't he do that for Michal? He does that for Michal. Michal, yeah. Right. So what I'm saying is that Saul says you're gonna marry Mirab, but if you read the scriptures, immediately David says, No, I don't want to do that. And then Saul switches over to Michal quicker. But in the show, they're taking like four episodes to get there, and episode five, they finally got there. So maybe episode six, we're gonna be capturing some Philistine body parts. Yeah. I'm interested to see if they're not.

Dave: 6:09

But in the Bible, there's not this rivalry thing where David really loves McCall and not Mir that's not in the Bible.

Bob: 6:14

No, no, of course, and there's of course not that scene where they go to the tab- Did you go did the tabernacle episode? Is that the one you saw with Samuel on the Okay, that must be episode four then. Yeah. Did you anoint David? I'm giving away too much. Yeah.

Dave: 6:26

Well, what do you mean by world building? Is that like a technical term for cinema?

Bob: 6:31

So in the cinema, I I understand why they're doing what they're doing in the sense that they're trying to create craft motivations for these characters that they're interacting with. Yeah. Because in the Bible you just read, oh, he did this, he did this, but there's no commentary on why they did these things and why this was a bigger deal type of stuff. So it in modern cinema, I understand why it works, but it can also be seen as you're adding to the scriptural narrative, which you know, they're speculating.

Dave: 6:59

I see what you mean.

Bob: 7:00

Yeah. So anyway, House of David. Just finished uh uh episode five. Alright, so now world famous segment we're coming into in the news. Alright, so Pastor Dave, I got some things I want to talk about. You got something you want to talk about? Sure. You want to go first? Which which one do you want to do?

Dave: 7:20

Let's talk about what's happening in the uh I sent you guys a really long news clip from the director of the FBI, Cash Patel, who busted up a gambling scheme, scandal going on in the NBA. Yes. The coach of the Trailblazers, and there was a a well-known player from the Miami Heat and a bunch of other NBA guys. Noah, did you have a name? Terry Rogier. That's who it was. And these guys are corrupt. They're they're performing on the court in a way to manipulate the score because certain people have put money on certain stats, and this is uh corruption. I'm very disappointed.

Bob: 8:04

Chauncey Billlops, he's he's in there. Who did he play for when he was in like actually playing? The Pistons were his Pistons? Yeah. Did he play with Derek Thomas? How old is he? How how long how long ago did he play? He's probably about 50 years old now. He played in the early 2000s. Okay, was he with uh Isaiah Thomas or Isaiah Thomas was before his time? Isaiah Thomas, I think, was before his time. He was like 80s, right? Okay, yeah.

Dave: 8:25

Disappointing, Chauncey. Yeah, so this is very illegal, first of all, these betting activities, not to mention, I don't think, a good scriptural way to spend your time morally and ethically from a Christian worldview, right? True, true. But also just from a sports like spectator viewpoint, Tim, Noah, it's like, hey, wait a minute. I thought we were having a good competitive, fair game we're watching here, and actually there's maybe some other motives going on. How did you guys feel about this big scandal? It's another disappointment from the NBA.

Tim: 9:01

One among many. I know Chauncey Billups is like, he's in the Hall of Fame, right? He's like very decorated championships. Isn't he a coach?

Bob: 9:17

He's a coach of the Portland Trailblazer.

Tim: 9:20

So like that can all just be taken away.

Bob: 9:22

Oregon has corrupted him.

Tim: 9:24

Very, very quickly. Um so it's it's a shame to see, you know, someone that was, you know, Detroit is a really awesome sports market. Um and the Pistons are are beloved over there, and you know, that's one of your it's one of your big legends, so that's that's now gonna be tainted um if this is if this all comes to pass. But yeah, you hate to see it. Um, you know, anything like this when there's a scandal around an athlete, you know, it's yeah, it's it's tough to see. So that's what I'm that's what I was interested in.

Bob: 9:49

All right. I got a bunch of stuff. So let's stick on the sports theme for a second. Number one, I want to mention the fact that let's talk about baseball in the World Series. Uh the Blue Jays versus the Dodgers. What's the current count? At least one-one, right? Still one-one, then they're traveling to LA. Well, I want to bring it up because uh isn't tonight game three?

Tim: 10:06

I got it wrong last week, so I'm not I'm gonna look it up.

Bob: 10:08

Look it up while you're doing that. The reason I'm bringing it up is because Don Mattingley is the bench coach for the Toronto Blue Jays. Don Mattingley was my favorite baseball player growing up. He was the first baseman for the Yankees. He was affectionately known as Donny Baseball, and he got to about his mid-30s and his back gave out. And before the Yankees won all their World Series at the end of the 90s, uh, Don Mattingley retired and didn't actually get to go to any of those World Series after he had put in like 15 years with the Yankees when they were not good. Um finally, this is his first World Series, and so the Blue Jays are trying to beat the Dodgers for Donnie baseball so he can get his first uh his first ring right here. So uh I don't like the Blue Jays, but I'm gonna have to root for the Blue Jays to win the World Series so Don Mattingley can get his uh his World Series ring.

Dave: 10:56

Boom. Somehow the Yankees are like gonna come into this this story. I guess we gotta squeeze him in somewhere.

Bob: 11:04

That's right. You you can't you can't you can't not mention the Yankees when it comes to baseball.

Dave: 11:08

All right.

Tim: 11:08

It is tonight. It's at 8 p.m. Yes. 1-1. Who's pitching? Uh it's Glasnow for the uh for the Dodgers and Max Scherzer for the Blue Jays. All right. What's the prediction, Noah?

Bob: 11:19

What do you think?

Noah: 11:21

I don't really watch baseball. But I'm pulling for the Blue Jays. I'd like to see the Blue Jays.

Bob: 11:25

I I am also pulling for the Blue Jays. All right. You guys, you're canade. Is that because they beat the Yankees? Because all the tariffs are going on with Canada, so now the Blue Jays have to be.

Tim: 11:37

There's a couple of uh there's a couple of kids in our youth group who are Dodgers fans for pretty basically no reason.

Bob: 11:42

Now Mattingley did Mattingley did manage the Dodgers for a couple years back in uh 2011 to 2015, but I think he didn't get the World Series back then either. Yes. Alright, so that was that. Now turning to some more serious notes. Well, actually, I'm sorry, before I do that, one one update from a news story last week, the Louvre that I didn't think was real. I saw lots of people commenting on the Louvre um uh uh steel. Heist. Heist. There you go. But uh the update is that the uh they they have apprehended the culprits who stole the jewels from the Louvre. So that's the update from last week. And uh since they broke the Ten Commandment, Christian Worldview, uh they're gonna they're gonna face the uh the wrath of the uh the justice system, the the the government over there. Bon travail, France in uh in France. We wee. Okay. So that's an update. All right, so some some other interesting things I wanted to mention that caught my eye this week. So there was a clip I saw on social media through my feed that Joe Rogan, famous podcaster, has been making his way to church. Uh here was what I saw. Pray for uh this guy is asking, pray for Joe Rogan, he's close to the kingdom. And the caption was Joe Rogan tells his guests he enjoys going to church. And uh here, listen, I I think I can play this and maybe see if I can get it on the audio here.

Clip: 13:02

So I go to the read and uh um analyze passages in the Bible. I'm really interested in what these people were trying to say. Because I don't think it's nothing. There's a lot of like atheists and secular people that would just like to dismiss Christianity as being foolish. I think there's something to what they're saying. I think there's something to it, and there's a reason why it resonated with Christianity in particular that everybody agrees that somehow or another had the best plan for how human beings should interact with each other and behave, and was the best example of it, and even died in a non-violent way, like didn't even protest, died on the cross, supposedly for our sins. Like it's a fascinating story.

Bob: 14:25

Alright, so Pastor Dave, what do you think about that? What's what's going on with Joe Rogan right there? I mean, he's got tens of millions of people that listen to him, and this is what he's talking about on his airwaves. I thought it was awesome.

Dave: 14:35

Wow, they have this thing, like the Bible, and they explain passages and they they read and they analyze the passages.

Bob: 14:42

Boom!

Dave: 14:43

That's what we do. You don't tend to think of it as that spectacular, right? Like we do this every single Sunday, buddy. Um, but you know, people don't really know what they're missing. Church is awesome. We we we we got it going on around here, man.

Bob: 14:57

We read and we analyze the Bible. It's fascinating. He said, this guy who supposedly died on the cross. Like the Bible. He said Jesus was fascinating. He says there's something to it. There's this one guy he supposedly died on the cross for us. Supposedly. I don't think it's nothing. So anyway, well, this is this is pretty cool. So we'll pray for Joe Rogan. That was going on. Um on a different somber. I wonder where it goes. Oh, that is true. He he's in Texas.

Tim: 15:24

Oh, he is? Guess the denomination.

Bob: 15:26

I would guess SBC. It's gotta be SBC.

Dave: 15:29

You think so?

Bob: 15:30

I mean, there's a lot of SBC stuff in Texas. But what he's describing as to what they do for the preaching, I imagine it's more SBC. I'm gonna guess like uh they call them I don't know if the Methodist Baptists are all the Methodists are down there reading and analyzing the Bible.

Tim: 15:44

I'm gonna say just your classic non-denam, which are essentially usually just Baptists. But this is true.

Dave: 15:51

I just want to say this uh some people think that in order to grow your church, you have to have a big, huge like blow-up gorilla on the sidewalk. And what I mean by that is allegorically speaking, right? You symbolically you gotta have like this big entertainment. Symbolic five minutes. Like the way to yeah, the way to get people in the door is you have to like do entertaining stuff and you have to like you know. No, you don't. Actually, people want to come in and hear you like talk about and analyze the Bible. I'm just saying. It's like what we do is actually cool. We don't have to we don't have to like you know one up anything. What we do is actually awesome in and of itself.

Bob: 16:32

We just we just trust the gods that the Holy Spirit's gonna work.

Dave: 16:34

Yeah, we don't have to like throw grapes out into the audience and but for the record, I did not throw the grapes out in the audience.

Bob: 16:44

I I I told people I will not let you choke if it goes down the wrong pipe. Last week. We'll throw out the scripture journals to everybody. There, there it is. There's the grape. It's that's a that's a good-looking grape right there. So there you go. Alright, now on a more somber note, I had another thing. So that I I mentioned, I think we mentioned last week, there is some serious persecution of the Christians going on in Nigeria. It's been getting a lot of play on social media, even on the news. Uh different commentators are mentioning it. I think uh Ted Cruz or somebody put out uh uh uh some kind of legislation to uh to to help the Christians over in Nigeria. I also saw uh that there was 30 Christians beheaded in Mozambique. So there's some serious global um persecution of Christians. And this one guy that um his his um there was a video of him last week standing in a grave screaming out for people to uh to end this genocide. Well now there's a video of him out here talking about how they're coming for him, and uh he doesn't want uh he's already told people that he doesn't want anybody uh given any money. So let's listen to this pastor right here. This is a Nigerian pastor, and the resolve as his life is is in danger. This is what he's saying.

Tim: 17:59

Hold on, before before we do this, uh I don't think I can use the Rogan thing that you just did. Are you able to kind of just explain I can't I what he because I the copyright stuff, we can't just be playing other people's stuff. I'm not sure what the the the laws and stuff with are.

Bob: 18:14

Okay, I mean it's just a clip on social media.

Tim: 18:16

Alright, I I know the Rogan stuff I definitely can't use, but maybe that I could do just play and do some more research on it.

Bob: 18:23

Okay, well you you can you I I'll how about I play it, you research it, and then I will uh I'll I'll explain it afterwards. That's that's good. Okay, and then you can just clip it out if you need to. And uh and basically he's saying that if they come for me, uh don't don't you pay any ransom. I'll I'll be a martyr, basically. And and that's what's gonna galvanize some of the the change that's gonna hopefully happen in Nigeria. Um I mean I I can't imagine, but this this is what's going on in other parts of the world that if you're a Christian, uh they're just they're putting you to death. They're coming and beheading you and they're they're your whole village, they're killing. It's it's it's it's a tragedy. So we we need to be praying for the church in Nigeria, uh the church in Mozambique, the church in all these persecuted parts of the world, um, because uh God's doing something here in the US, he He's moving on people's hearts, but in another way, things are happening in other parts of the world where um people are coming under attack because of their belief in Christ. And these are people that are standing strong for it. So um There you go. You add anything to this?

Dave: 20:14

Well, it may be not politically correct to say this, but the source of the persecution in this case is jihadist violence and it's escalating. So it looks like a few different groups coming together, not just Boko Haram, but the Fulani fighters and the Fulanis, yeah, Africa province. And these are all increasing under um the current administration, so there's uh definitely uh a time of vulnerability for Christians in Nigeria, and um reading on open doors right here, where they just suggest to pray in three areas for Christians whose loved ones have been killed or abducted. Number two, that God would work in the hearts of the Nigerian leadership to protect the Christian citizens and for the millions of Christians and others who have been displaced by violence. Yeah. So tragic tragic story. Uh pray for our brothers and sisters. I suppose there's a wonderful boldness to the person's courage there in the clip who doesn't want any sort of financial ransom to be paid on his half on his behalf. On the other hand, I also think there's a practicality to that because if the persecutors start learning that this is a way to uh receive financial income, you're only gonna see this increase, and you're gonna see more of this. The more you begin to actually fund these, you know, terrorists, then the more they're gonna you know continue to so it's it just kind of repeats itself that way. So uh pray for our brothers and sisters in Nigeria.

Bob: 21:47

All right. Last story, do you want to mention the super intelligence one? You were pumped up about that. Oh, and that's it.

Dave: 21:53

Yeah, sure. Uh so this passage. Pass sure, man.

Bob: 21:56

Look at this. This is it.

Dave: 21:58

Yeah. Wow. It's there's this there's everybody knows about AI. Everybody knows that you know there's a level of artificial intelligence out there that's uh groundbreaking, that's kind of you know making all kinds of inroads in different industries, but there's another kind of research that's happening on something called superintelligence, and multiple people around the world really have signed a statement halting, putting putting a stop to superintelligence and the creation of this. And I'm talking about people that are very different.

Bob: 22:30

There was Prince Harry and Meghan Markle. Yeah, yeah. They signed it.

Dave: 22:33

British royalty, you got people who work in the upper echelons of Apple, you've got Christian ethicists like Andrew Walker, you've got missiologists, uh, you've got all kinds of people who are saying, hey, this is where we get off the train, we're not doing this. So you want to just read it? It's it's short enough.

Bob: 22:53

It's I will it's a tweet. It's a tweet. Literally, this is what it says.

Dave: 22:56

Okay, so here's the statement on superintelligence.

Bob: 22:58

We call for a prohibition on the development of superintelligence not lifted before there is one broad scientific consensus that it will be done safely and controllably, and two, strong public buy-in. And that's it.

Dave: 23:13

So I don't know. Do you think this is gonna put a stop to it? Or do you think this is a train that's already run off its tracks?

Bob: 23:20

I don't know. I think that the issue is uh I heard somebody I think John Stone Street was commenting on this. The issue is China. So you have other countries that are are not gonna abide by this, and you let them do it, is that gonna put you at a disadvantage? Um that's kind of the do you have to it's like it's like an arms race, you know? So yes, I I would like to see it it stopped. Um but will it be stopped? I some people might have some practicality issues uh given what I just said.

Dave: 23:49

Is there a fear that the superintelligence is gonna violate what the first rule of robotics that a robot can never harm a human being? Is that is there a concern that this thing's gonna become smarter than us and we're gonna actually end up creating something that can do us harm?

Bob: 24:05

Yes.

Dave: 24:06

Either through action or through inaction.

Bob: 24:08

Yeah.

Dave: 24:09

Well, I I think this is a scary time to live in some ways, man.

Bob: 24:13

Look at the different stories we've mentioned here. We went all the way from gambling in the MBA to superintelligence to persecution of Christians to um yeah, it's it's a cra it is a crazy time to be alive, and so we need to trust that the Lord is on his throne. And like you saved Hezekiah from Senekara, we trust that he can do the same thing uh for us.

Dave: 24:33

Mm-hmm.

Bob: 24:33

There you go. Alright, that's what's going on in the news. And now, before we move on to our next most famous segment, let's talk about our second sponsor. Our second sponsor is gonna be the Underground Sessions podcast. So we have a couple different podcasts that happen here on our YouTube channel. Behind the pulpit is one, and we have a sister podcast or a brother podcast called the Underground Sessions, where we talk about faith, culture, politics. Sometimes those things coincide. Uh, we're gonna be launching a new season here pretty quickly that's gonna be more regular. We're gonna be doing a little bit of a different format that's more commentary, uh, like maybe eight to ten minute episodes. Uh sometimes we'll do longer form interviews. I think Dave and I are slated for a topic. Uh, Tim's got somebody else coming in in January, but we want to get you thinking from a Christian worldview perspective about all of life. And so we're gonna be launching that here pretty soon. I don't know, Tim, what else can I say about that? What else can I say about that sponsor?

Tim: 25:29

I think that was good. I think we're we're looking forward to you know playing around with how the uh the show looks in terms of a background perspective, you know, maybe some different visuals and things. But yeah, it's gonna be really good, and we're looking forward to getting you some consistent content. I really zoomed this thing in, didn't I?

Bob: 25:44

We're doing it. There you go. Mentioning uh bringing up the devils right there. All right, so next segment we're moving into is the Great Book War. I know all of you that have been watching, you have been waiting for this segment. This is the most commented segment outside of the podcast that I heard Joe Rogan consumes the book war. I bet he does. He's he's whoa, it's crazy. Look at that. They like analyze the Bible. Fascinating. They read books about the Bible. So here's the question which book would Joe Rogan pick this week? Um, so I'll let you do the update, Tim, and then we'll uh we'll we'll throw it down.

Tim: 26:16

Well, if Joe Rogan voted uh according to the data, it'd be more likely that he picked this book.

Bob: 26:23

Whoa! You know what? I actually think he would have picked that book because he's like a muscle man right there. All right, I had a victory. I had somebody walk up to me and say, hey, another great pick. He he ordered several for his uh relatives.

Tim: 26:36

It was a uh it was a as I sold Pastor Rob earlier, it was a riveting battle between a book just for men and a $58 book. This was and it came down right to the wire once again.

Bob: 26:47

And yet I only won by how many votes? One vote. There you go. Hey, you know, thank you if you voted, though. They don't ask how many, they only ask how. This is like the uh right there, it's like the uh the New Jersey governor election. It's gonna be razor thin, I think, in the end.

Tim: 27:02

It's only a two it's only a two-vote swing so far. So anything can happen. The season is young, and without further ado, Pastor Dave, why don't you tell us about your book? All right.

Dave: 27:12

This week I had not one, not two, but three archaeological discoveries mentioned in my sermon because King Hezekiah and the year 701 BC is a year that has really been verified in terms of the activities around the nation of Israel. So I'm gonna use this as an opportunity to highlight probably what is the most classic book on this subject, on the subject of Old Testament reliability, by the great Kenneth Kitchen. It's called The On the Reliability of the Old Testament. Kitchen is a um professor emeritus of Egyptology in England at the University of Liverpool. Um, there's a lot of great stuff on New Testament reliability. Your boy Blomberg has a good one. But in terms of Old Testament reliability, this is the classic. This thing is good. It's published by Eerdmans, and he walks right through the different books of the canon. So if you want to know, like, is there anything on Genesis or Exodus? He just tells you everything that's in here and how we can really rely on the Old Testament. So it's more of a reference book, but it's something I think you should have on your shelf. Um, I think you should have it on your coffee table so that when guests come over and they're like, hey, what's that? Then you can tell them all about this, and you can mention some of the wonderful archaeological discoveries I talked about in my sermon this week. Now, what does he talk about? So if you want to impress your friends, just bring up like, you know, the Assyrian Lakeish reliefs and be they'd be like, What is that? Well, uh, there's this amazing discovery that they found, and you can say it actually verifies everything that's in the Bible. Did you know that there's a lot of stuff that actually verifies the Bible? Oh, really? Yeah, the more I start digging around, the the more I start finding out the Bible's actually.

Bob: 28:55

You know, Pastor Dave, I it leads you right into I did send Tim some pictures because this last Wednesday I went to the Penn Museum down in Philadelphia, and they had a lot of uh Assyrian artifacts. Yeah, it really happened. It did happen. It very much happened. All right, so now that's my recommendation.

Dave: 29:10

Kitchen.

Bob: 29:10

By the way, where's where does uh KA Kitchen teach?

Dave: 29:14

University of Liverpool in England.

Bob: 29:15

Oh, he's in a he's a yeah. You had you had to give the recommendation with a British accent, why not? Oh. Scouse. Not that great at that. All right, all right. So here over here, I I have two books, and I I am I was strategizing as I saw what won me last week and what Pastor Dave was recommending this week. So this is a uh Strategic hard choice. I don't know. It's like whether you choose to go uh scissors or rock or paper uh based on what you offered there. New home field advantage being uh I know, I know, I know. This is this is a difficult, it's a difficult one. Um but um you know what? I think uh well we'll see what happens. I'm gonna test the theory here. So I'm gonna go with uh the larger book, and uh I think I recommended this in the past, but it's still a A good recommendation. It's a book called Creeds, Confessions, and Catechisms, edited by Chad Van Dixhorn. Used to teach at Westminster. He's now down at Reformed Theological Seminary. And if you are looking to understand the history of the most famous Creeds and Confessions, like the Westminster Confession, the London Baptist Confession, the Belgic Confession, and the Creeds, The Apostles, Nicene, Athanasian Creed, Chalcedonian Definition, the Heidelberg Catechism, which is one of my favorite ones, Westminster Shorter Catechism. They're all in this book right here. And he adds some helpful commentary and introductions if you want to understand why those Creeds and Confessions and Catechisms were written and a little bit of the background of them. So that's my recommendation here if you want to go a little church history and theology right together. And it's got a wonderful cross on the front, by the way. So there you go. Creeds, confessions, catechisms, that'll be my entry for this week. And I'm going to put my other one off for another time.

Tim: 31:02

We recommend you decide.

Bob: 31:07

Oh, that's true.

Tim: 31:08

Do do we have uh already uh We have a couple people who are tied for the lead.

Bob: 31:12

Okay.

Tim: 31:12

Okay. I will not be revealing their names. Okay.

Bob: 31:14

When are we revealing are we reveal revealing their names on the Christmas Eve?

Tim: 31:18

Uh we might reveal some we might reveal some uh some progress reports on the Christmas Eve, on the Christmas episode.

Bob: 31:23

Okay, okay. Uh now are we planning to drop the Christmas episode on Christmas morning again this year? Even though it's not uh happening on Sunday.

Tim: 31:33

Um we will get back to you.

Bob: 31:35

All right.

Tim: 31:36

I think that would be a good idea.

Bob: 31:38

Okay, wonderful. All right, so Tim, uh I I see here we want to do some audience questions. Yes. I'm trying to decide where I should insert these videos, but uh maybe we'll do that for the sermon portion because that's going to be heavy archaeology. Um let you throw the audience questions at us, Tim.

Tim: 31:54

Bring it. Uh we have um three audience questions, and they're all short. Um so maybe we could do a little rapid fire action here. So the first question um comes from Melissa, and she asks, why don't we have prophets like Isaiah today?

Bob: 32:17

Did you did you answer that in your sermon at all, or no?

Dave: 32:20

No?

Bob: 32:20

Yeah. Yeah, there's a difference, uh you know, Old Testament prophets and New Testament prophets. Uh we we do think that a lot of the the revelation has been given. Uh there is the talk in the New Testament, and we've done some series on this about the New Testament gift of uh prophecy and what that actually uh means. I think Pastor Dave has a good good sermon on that from our first Corinthians series, which we could link uh in the uh in the in the show notes down there. Um but uh but yeah, the canon has been fully completed, and so we we do not think that uh there's gonna be new words of revelation, whereas back in the old testament times uh that was not the case. Um and so God is God has God's word is complete. Um where would you augment that, Pastor Dave?

Dave: 33:11

Hebrews chapter one, verses one through three says, In the past, God spoke to us in a various different ways, um, and one of those ways is through his direct, infallible word that was given to the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us through his son. And so all of the offices in the Old Testament, whether that's prophet or priest or king, all of those offices were pointing toward the ultimate um fulfillment of the anointed messenger of God, the Messiah, Jesus Christ, who is our prophet, priest, and king. God has climactically revealed himself in the person of Jesus, and there is um a centrality to the ministry of Christ that would overshadow and outweigh any other prophet. And so, in a sense, they were all leading up to a certain climax, and then we got there in the person of Jesus, and so things were different back then. Uh, God spoke in a different way. I think we live in a new covenant era, and primarily God is working through his church, and he's got this body and different gifts in the body, and that's the the primary manner in which we see God at work today. Things were different back then. Good.

Tim: 34:26

Next question. All right, the second question might have been something, I think it was something that Pastor Dave covered in his sermon, but this person may have wanted a little extra clarity. And that question is Does Isaiah 38 teach us that God changes his mind?

Bob: 34:41

You did cover that, didn't you?

Dave: 34:44

You know, Ken Huber was teaching on providence yesterday in the adult education seminar on systematic theology. And I said, uh, I hope I didn't say anything in the sermon that contradicted your lesson directly. I was being a little cheeky during the sermon because God did actually tell like Hezekiah he was going to die, and then Hezekiah prayed, and then God sent the word through Isaiah the prophet that he was gonna extend his life by 15 years. So it appears as if from our perspective that God changed his mind in that text. But we also know from so many other texts that God doesn't change. Malachi 3:6 is probably the most famous um passage about this. I, the Lord, do not change. I'm not like you. Um and so with God, there is no shifting shadow. James chapter 1. God does not evolve, God does not learn, God does not ever reverse his eternal decree, his eternal purpose, his ways are perfect, his promises are uh yes and amen. And so, how do we understand what's going on in the Bible with real relationship to prayer and God's eternal purpose? Um, I think there's a a little bit of a mystery here. Let's just say we don't totally understand, um, but I think there is a wonderful uh compatibility between human decisions, prayers, our free will, and God's sovereign plan. And then God can actually fold into his plan our prayers as a causal mechanism in a secondary way. And so it's not that God didn't already know what he was going to do, um, but it's that God actually invited human beings into that opportunity to be part of his plan through prayer. And so to not avail yourself of that incredible privilege as a human being, that we can have access to God and pray would be colossal folly, right? Like the scriptures tell us that we can actually make a difference through our prayers. Um, you know, the Bible says, Do you not know that you will judge angels? Right? Do you know who you are as a child of God, that you can actually access the throne room and make a difference, even in the heavenly realms, through your prayers? So God's plan is unchangeable, uh, but his actions within time uh accomplish his plan in a certain way, and sometimes our prayers are involved in him accomplishing those plans. Um does God change his mind? As every theological question can be answered, yes and no. It depends what you mean. No, in the sense that he's unchanging and perfect, yes, in the sense that um he is relational and he is dynamic and he is actually in in in a real uh corresponding relationship with his people, and there's genuine interactivity there. That doesn't mean he's fickle, but it it means that he allows us to relate to him, ask things, and he can answer out of his benevolent goodness. Confusing, right? Not at all. Clear as mud. Thanks, Master Dave.

Tim: 38:05

All right, is there a third question? Yes, our third question is a bit more sprinty. Um so our third question is objectively, why is God striking down 185,000 people a good thing?

Dave: 38:23

Do you want to talk about the bully?

Bob: 38:28

Yeah. Yeah. So um I mean the illustration that I gave in my sermon was the fact that Assyria was uh the bully. Uh like like well, let's let's imagine that you you have a schoolyard bully who who's been beating you up and uh has just been harassing you and harassing you and making your life miserable. Um would you want that bully to hang around and not face any consequences? And when God comes in and when God takes out the enemies of Israel, that is sort of like God uh giving the bully what he deserves. Um Yeah, I mean yeah sim similarly, I mean if if you had imagine you had somebody who came in and uh slaughtered your entire family and was not remorseful over it, should there not be any consequences for that for that person? Um this is how God chose to deliver uh his people who trusted in him uh in this particular scene. Uh and so that's uh how God brought about um salvation and prev preservation for his people. In that way, I think that's a good thing.

Dave: 39:33

It's morally uncomfortable to talk about, but the underneath of that question there's a premise that these hundred and eighty-five thousand people were innocent, and that's not true at all. These were uh vicious um military um you know, soldiers who oppressed um the the weak, the vulnerable, and they were blaspheming God's name. And um this was an enactment of divine justice, and it demonstrates God's power over the nations, his sovereignty, his purpose, and um it prevents the evil that was going to occur when they were going to attack God's people and his holy city Jerusalem. And so in some ways, it's hard to hear uh that kind of story. In other ways, this does advance his redemptive historical purpose in biblical history. Um, some parts of the Bible are morally uncomfortable, but we can't cherry pick them out of their context. We have to remember what was happening there. God gives people a lot of grace and mercy, but then that mercy is not never ending. His patience does have an end. And so there's warnings that God gives, and um eventually God brings about justice on behalf of his people. So it's it's painful to read about some sometimes, but keep the big story in view. We serve a gracious God who gives his people a lot of time to be patient with them and to repent. Um but uh we have to realize that that does come to an end. Um our God is compassionate, but he also is a God who's just and the victory in that battle was a was a you could call it a divine holy war against the evil enemies of God.

Bob: 41:16

So yeah, it's a similar issue. I remember years ago we had done a series through Esther, and at the end of Esther it's very much like the people go and the uh gossip the Jewish people go and kill a bunch of people. How do you how do you preach that? Why is that a good thing, right? Right. Um so yeah, those are those are problematic uh passages, but not not insurmountable when you think uh think about it. Right. All right. Any other questions? Are we are we good? That's it. I think we're uh we have an interview now, I believe. Uh uh Yes, we do. So why don't I give the next body life segment, which is um or I should the next sponsor of our episode, which is City Relief. Uh City Relief is a organization that we support very, very much. And uh I think Tim was gonna tell you the details about why City Relief is sponsoring this episode.

Tim: 42:05

Yes, City Relief is a sponsor of the set. First of all, they love the show. City Relief loves uh behind the pulpit. They they donate all the time. Uh just kidding, they don't. Um but we are going out with City Relief on November 15th. I'm still looking for five more spots. Uh maybe it'll be less by the time that this um podcast goes out. But if you are interested in serving with City Relief, please let me know and I will get you that form. Uh, you can just email me, Tim at MillingtonBaptist.org. Um we'll get you out there. Um if the spots fill up before you get chances on it for this one, uh, then we'll get you out on the next time. But we do need more volunteers to go out on November 15th in the South Bronx. So please let me know uh if you would like to serve.

Dave: 42:48

And that is it. Tim, what's on your coffee cup there, man?

Tim: 42:52

Uh this.

Dave: 42:54

The blue.

Tim: 42:55

Oh, this? This is a this is world team merch back from uh World Team. When we had uh who was it who we had on with World Team? We had a missionary um who came with World Team. Bob, help me out here.

Bob: 43:08

Uh the Vostors. Right. Uh Tom and Alicia came and they they they like they offered us a mug. So Tim Tim kept it. World team. Have you used it to enjoy a beverage from Tim?

Tim: 43:17

Uh I believe at one point I've used to enjoy it, used it to enjoy beverage.

Bob: 43:22

Hopefully you've you've watched it since.

Tim: 43:23

Yes, I need to get my Pillar College merch back out here. Try to keep the merch from the shows on the desk.

Bob: 43:28

Yeah. There you go. All right. So now uh we're gonna get into our sermon portion, but before we dive into the technical stuff that Pastor Dave's gonna give us, uh we did talk about the story of Andrew Strain, and so we're gonna watch an interview.

Dave: 43:42

Modern day Hezekiah.

Bob: 43:43

It's true. And uh, why don't you check out this interview we did with Andrew? Um and uh we're gonna hear a little bit about his story, so check this out.

Dave: 43:51

Hey, we are so excited to have with us our guest, Andrew Strain, is uh coming to us via video from the big Apple from New York City. What's up, Andrew? How are you?

Andrew: 44:02

Hey guys, I'm uh I'm doing really well. How about you guys?

Bob: 44:08

We're hanging out, man. It's uh it's like another world over here. I see your your apartment's nice and clean and and white, and man, I'm sure you got a good view out at that window.

Andrew: 44:21

Uh I have a million-dollar view of the Empire State Building, believe it or not. There you go.

Dave: 44:26

That's so cool. Well, you probably uh are aware that a lot of people know your story as a result of allowing me to talk about that in the sermon yesterday, and I thought it'd be cool to get a chance to dialogue with you and hear a little bit more from your own perspective. So thanks for being willing to share what God did in your life. I wonder if you could just um first of all take us back to the original moment when you first found out something was wrong. What what was happening back then earlier in in the spring? Was it was it May? Uh when you had a normal, normal doctor's visit routine. Was it blood work you were you were getting? Or take us back there?

Andrew: 45:15

Yeah, it was May, and uh it was a pretty heavy pollen season. I have I drive a black car, so I can always tell when the pollen's really bad when I walk out the door and my car is suddenly yellow. Um and I have seasonal allergies, and I'm allergic to just about every kind of pollen. And one of the uh things that can happen doesn't happen as much now that I'm an adult, but it bothered me when I was a kid is I could get an asthma attack. And for that, I I use an inhaler. And so I pulled out my inhaler that was like down in the bottom of the drawer and noticed it had expired like three years ago. So I thought maybe I better get a new one. And to do that, I had to make a doctor's appointment. And I hadn't been to the doctor for a number of years because I had just been doing a lot of traveling and was so busy at work, and it's never really convenient. But I should have gone to the doctor because I had no idea that there was a more serious problem than just asthma going on with me. I was just ignorant. So when I went to the doctor and requested the inhaler, he said, Oh, we haven't done a physical in a while. I could draw some blood now, and then we could just schedule a follow-up appointment to finish the physical. And he took some blood, and I went home, you know, none the wiser. And the next morning I was on my computer and I got a call from my doctor, and I hardly ever get a call from my doctor. And so I silenced my computer, answered the call, and he said, Your blood work is great, except there's one indication it might be a blood clot. Can you go to the emergency room? And so I did, and I didn't tell anybody. My daughter was downstairs taking a class online, so I just kind of whispered to her, I gotta step out, I'll be back in an hour. So went to the emergency room, they admitted me to the emergency room and they checked me for blood clots with an ultrasound up and down my legs and all my big veins, and they couldn't find the clot, so they drew some more blood to figure out why this metric was off. And they came back and they said, We think it's a more serious problem. We're gonna admit you to the hospital. And I spent, I think, eight days at Overlook Hospital while they ran all kinds of tests, more ultrasounds. Uh, they did a paracentesis to take some fluid from my abdomen and test it, and they determined I had cirrhosis of the liver, um, which there can be many causes, because when I hear the word cirrhosis, I immediately think alcohol, and I think of a raging alcoholic, but I had no idea it could be caused by viruses, it could be caused by fatty liver, which I definitely was a candidate for because I habitually had been overweight most of my adult life. Um, it could be caused. There's a lady in my uh transplant survivors group who her liver problems were actually caused by a parasite that she didn't know she had. So they determined it was probably a combination of things and the alcohol. I was a social drinker, so that definitely contributed to it. Um I also probably had a fatty liver. But the main problem was I didn't know I had it. It probably had been going on for several years, and my liver was at a point where they they called it dissipated, which means they couldn't treat it. It was in the final stages of failure already. Um I just didn't know that. And they told me my only option was to get myself onto the transplant list. So I called, they they recommended Langone. My wife has somebody whose husband was the head of surgery at Montfiore. He also recommended Langone because it's an academic hospital and they had quite a large transplant uh team. They transplant all very all kinds of organs. And I contacted them and they put me through a battery test to make sure I could survive the surgery, to make sure I was a viable candidate for transplant. And that's how I got on the transplant list is uh I turned out to be fairly healthy, good bone structure, good stomach, um, strong heart, but my liver wasn't very good.

Dave: 49:47

So let me pause there and just ask you a question. When you first learned that you're gonna need a liver transplant, what's going through your heart? What's going through your mind? How are you processing this?

Andrew: 49:59

It's a huge shock. Um, you know, I I always knew the day would come where you would have to face up to your mortality. You know, I've been a Christian since I was a very young age, but you still don't you're not prepared for it when you get that kind of news. So it was a shock. It was probably a larger shock to my family. Um their jaws literally hit the floor when the doctors told us the news. Um and uh I, you know, I thought, oh, well, this this has happened a lot earlier than I thought it would. I thought I'd be a much older man when this kind of thing news was delivered, but it wasn't. And so, you know, I just kind of like sat back and thought, okay, well, if that's it, if this is, you know, my only chance, I'm gonna try to get on the transplant list. But if it doesn't work out, you know, I better start praying a lot. And it changed the way I prayed. I started to really think about the words I use when I pray. Um, I start to think about praying before I actually pray. You know, I I guess I took it a lot more seriously. Um but it took a while for it really to sink in. And when I told you the story about me laying on the couch, that's when it really hit me. And um, God used that in a way because if you really look at the timing, I had just been placed on the transplant list. I had only been home for a couple of days, and I was laying on that couch, and I rolled over and faced the couch, and I prayed, and it probably wasn't a very articulate, beautiful prayer, it was probably kind of a stumbling prayer. Um and then the phone rang and they offered me a liver. But if you think about the timing, God had prepared that liver before I even laid down on that couch. He already knew what he was gonna do. I just didn't know. And uh He used that to really reveal his power, his control over my life. And it's really when I kind of gave everything up and said, Well, if you already know the outcome for me and my family, if it's that I don't make it, you know, number one, I want to meet you and talk to you, and number two, care for my family. And I gave up everything. My my own existence. And then boom, the phone rang. That's a pretty amazing I can't call that a coincidence.

Dave: 52:46

No, I just uh you you could try to convince me of that, that would be hard to convince me of that. So it sounds like that was a moment of your faith in Christ being sustained and confirmed, and during in the midst of a very difficult day, God showing up in a powerful way. So then you get this call. What was it five days later after you got on the list? Is that the right direct yeah, yeah. And were you were you um I mean, just in any way, shape, or form thinking that this phone call was coming? Or I mean this this was really soon, right? So how how surprised were you guys that this liver was available as soon as it was available?

Andrew: 53:30

Yeah, I I wish I wish Tim had been there with his GoPro filming the whole event because we probably look pretty ridiculous. I'm laying on the couch talking on the phone, and my wife and daughter were in the kitchen. You can see the couch from the kitchen. That's one of the reasons I rolled over and faced the couch, is I knew they could see me. And um they were making a lot of noise in the kitchen because they were preparing lunch, and I'm talking on the phone to the doctor, and he's offering me a liver, and I'm in disbelief. I almost fell off the couch. And then I said, Could you hold on for a second? And I my wife was standing in front of the stove, which has a really loud exhaust fan. So my daughter was closer, and I said to my daughter, I said, Claire, tell your mother they have a liver. And she turned around and she just shouted it, yeah, because we're sort of a half-Chinese household, and sometimes Chinese people are noisy. And my wife turned around and said, What? And she said, They have a liver. And my wife came scurrying into the living room where I was on the couch, and I put the doctor on speakerphone and he told the news to my wife, and he asked, Do you accept it? And we just looked at each other like, What are you crazy? Of course we accepted. And he said, Can you get here by two o'clock? And that was already 12 o'clock. And if you know anything about getting through the Holland Tunnel, it's only by providence that this came up on a Saturday where we could weave our way through the traffic and get through the Holland Tunnel. And we I, you know, they warned us to pack a like a bug out bag of supplies. I hadn't done it because I didn't think I was gonna get the phone call that fast. So we just scurried around the house, grabbed whatever we thought made sense, jumped in the car, and while we were in the car, that's when you know, we put it out to the church family group, you know, please pray.

Dave: 55:27

Yeah. So you're going in, and uh obviously you're under general anesthesia here. How long is the surgery and what was it like uh waking up and take us into the the next day or two uh through the weekend after you got there Saturday?

Andrew: 55:47

Yeah, so I arrived and uh they put you in what they call a holding area called surgery prep. Um, and they have a whole floor devoted to transplant patients, you know, heart transplants, lung transplants, they do all kinds of transplants here. And um it's a clean floor because most transplant patients have their immune systems repressed after surgery, they immediately give you anti-rejection drugs. And this is how I know God created us because even though I'm a human being and I have human DNA, they gave me someone else's liver. My body recognizes that's not my liver. And without the anti-rejection drugs, my own immune system would attack the new organ. So they have to kind of trick my body into accepting it by repressing my immune system and then slowly bringing me back. And that's what they're starting to do now. They're starting to adjust my drugs to let my immune system stabilize. So you're in the surgery prep and you're waiting, and they're giving you updates on the transport of the organ. So they wouldn't tell me where it was, they're not allowed to tell you who it is or where it is or any personal details, not even where, what city it is. They just said they were flying it in, and then they have uh a special ambulance bring it to the hospital, and they, you know, check it, clean it, wash it. They have a team with them from NYU Langone, you know, is with the organ the whole way. So they actually had a couple of doctors witness the extraction of the organs and then transport it to the hospital, and then they clean it. And the the transplant surgeon who actually performs the surgery has the final say. And my wife asked, Well, how many people get turned away? And uh about 10% of them, they find something with the organ and they'll say, Well, sorry, we're not gonna do the surgery today. That wasn't the case with me. They said, Okay, let's go. He actually came in himself and took me down. And then they start the general anesthesia in the operating theater. So I'm laid out on the table, they actually strap your legs and they put heating pads on your legs that kind of swell and keep your legs warm and keep your blood moving. And they put I I've never had so many IVs. I had IVs and two IVs in both arms and then one in my neck, right into my vein of my neck. And they slowly start giving you some anesthesia, and then they put a mask over your face and they ask you to breathe deep and count to backwards from a hundred. I don't think I even made ninety-eight. I just out. It was like somebody flicked a light switch, and then all of a sudden, poop, somebody flicked a light switch. It felt like seconds. It was actually an 11-hour surgery overnight. So they started on the 12th and finished on the 13th. And that's because there are so many veins connecting your liver to your body and your bile duct and everything else that they have what happens when your liver gets sick is the liver will try to heal itself and it'll actually create new veins and new pathways to pump blood. So there's more veins on my old liver than there were on the new one, healthy liver, and they have to actually cauterize veins and decide which ones they're gonna graft onto the new liver. And that's why it takes so long because it's very meticulous and tedious work. And then you wake up in uh ICU. I was in ICU for a couple days, and they moved me back down to the transplant ward, and I was there for um five, six days. I was mobile right away. They they were amazed I could get up and walk around. Um, but they always had a nurse, you know, with me to kind of steady, make sure I was steady and didn't fall down or anything, because I still had all these IVs. I had to trail a whole rack of IVs behind me when it but they encourage you to walk, they want you to move. And then they came in and said, You're doing remarkably well. We think you'll be happier. Home. We're going to discharge you. And I came home to New Jersey for that weekend and then moved into my apartment in Manhattan.

Dave: 1:00:10

Was there any other specific moments throughout the process where you sensed that God was with you and that his presence was real? I mean, you've already told us a couple pretty obvious God moments where he and his sovereignty came through for you. But is there any other parts of the story that you wanted to highlight?

Andrew: 1:00:30

Yeah. Um there were so many answers to prayer, and uh it was actually you who suggested it, Dave. I started actually recording dates and events um, you know, per your advice, because I didn't I wanted to capture, I don't ever want to forget how this came down. I don't want to ever forget the feelings I had. You know, and it's hard to do that. You really gotta force yourself to remember this stuff, especially the emotions. Um But there were so many answers to prayer that my wife and I were keeping a log of them and we eventually lost count. But just finding the apartment in Manhattan that was only two blocks away from where I needed to be, I don't think that was a coincidence either. Um and she found that apartment while I was still uh kind of like half sleeping all the time after and while I was still in the ICU. She signed a lease on the apartment while I was still in the ICU. Um while I was in the surgery, there was another woman sitting in the lounge waiting for her husband who was also in surgery, getting a transplant, and she was Chinese and didn't speak any English. So my wife was able to actually talk to her because the woman was sitting there crying and nobody could understand what she was saying. Wow. And my wife was able to actually share the gospel and pray with the woman in Chinese. I don't think that was an accident. I don't think that's coincidence. Um if you really want to get down to it, my wife, you know, I'm under her insurance because my projects, you know, start and stop, so my insurance is always, you know, hit or miss. So I go on her plan. She picked out a plan that uh accommodated for this. Otherwise, this would be a huge financial burden. We ended up paying more for that insurance plan, but um, you know, she didn't realize at the time that this was going to be utilized.

Dave: 1:02:44

So a lot of ways in which God just kind of showed up.

Andrew: 1:02:49

Yeah. So what like you said, you I have no idea how many ways he actually kept me out of distress before he put me in this position.

Dave: 1:02:57

Sure. So how has this experienced changed your perspective on life, on faith, on what truly matters?

Andrew: 1:03:11

Yeah, it's a big wake-up call. And um I look at it as a disciplinary call, you know. Um as part of the course, the Colson course, I spent a lot of time reading Packer and some others to discuss what it means to be a child of God. And I've always called God my heavenly father, but did I necessarily treat him as a father? Did I necessarily pay attention to him like I would a father? Well, I sure did that day. So, you know, what kind of father wouldn't discipline his children? I think it was Packer said that, or somebody else said that in one of their descriptions of what it means to be a child of God. And God will discipline us. And as you said, sometimes God will use distress, you know, um, to to help shape us. And so I've gone through a huge shaping process, you know. I don't think I would have been on this podcast before this event because it's just not in my nature to talk about myself in public like this. But now, how can I not? Yeah, you know, so I think it's changed me phenomenally. It's changed the way I pray, it's changed the way I look at my own mortality, and you know, some of the takeaways I would give people is number one, everybody who prayed for me, thank you so much. Because it really does make a big difference, and my gratitude for that is I don't know, I don't have words for it. The second takeaway is, you know, people in the world are just like me on the couch. You know, they're just waiting for the day they get that call and they get that news, and it might be sudden, it might be lengthy, you know. I still know I'm going to have that moment where I will pass away. I am still a mortal human being. Um but now I look at it like I've got a limited amount of time, and God has done so much for me in my life, you know, beyond just this. Um I feel an obligation to use that time for his will and his glory, and not really what I care about or what I want.

Dave: 1:05:41

That's great. Well, thanks for letting us just have a little bit of a window into your story. I just have one more question and then we'll let you go. But I wonder if you could speak to the person who's watching this and they're going through a health crisis. Um, somebody's watching this and they're going through a s a difficult season, they're going through a season of waiting. What have you learned about trusting God that you would want them to know? How would you encourage them?

Andrew: 1:06:13

Well, you know, I I would encourage them to read that chapter on Isaiah and how Isaiah prayed. Um, because like I told you, I could relate. I even rolled over to face the couch, he faced the wall. And I can relate to that moment where you're in distress, and I would encourage them to just don't focus on the distress. Focus on you're in distress and you're in a position where everything is out of your control, but it's in God's control. And essentially that's what I did when I prayed. And I'm not saying this is gonna work out for everybody who's in a similar situation that I was in, but irregardless, I would let God have the control. Give your life, give your will, your wants, your wishes, your hopes, your dreams, everything, hand it to God, put it at his feet, and say, Take it. Take take it and do what you will. He may use this distress to bring him to bring you to him. You know, you might not get the organ, you know, you might not get on the wait list. Um, I just heard a story about a man who needs a new kidney, but they won't perform the surgery on him because he had had syphilis, and that virus never goes away. So there are situations where that happens. Um but irregardless, God is in control. Even when you don't make it through the health issue, he's still in control, and you know, let him have the control, let him either guide you through the health issue or guide you to him.

Dave: 1:07:59

That's great. So the passage you're talking about is Isaiah chapter 38, the story of Hezekiah. Andrew, thanks for taking some time to uh share your very personal and vulnerable story with us. We're still praying for you, and we're looking forward to seeing you face to face soon, brother.

Andrew: 1:08:16

Yeah, should be pretty soon. I'm looking forward to it too. Thanks, guys. I really appreciate it. Thanks for your thanks for your preaching on the series of Isaiah. It's been really fantastic.

Bob: 1:08:25

Hope you enjoyed that. Andrew's story is pretty remarkable. Amazing. God does God does amazing, amazing things. Um, so now we're gonna get into the uh sermon portion, and this portion of Behind the Pulpit is brought to you by the Truth Rising Bible Study. So if you came to our Truth Rising uh showing uh about a month ago or so, a little bit more than a month ago, uh this was a documentary that was put up by the Colson Center for Christian Worldview and Focus on the Family talking about uh the loss of truth in our world and our need to stand up for it. Uh well, there is a four-week study based on that documentary that's going to be beginning this coming Sunday, November the 2nd at 1045. Um, if you're interested in joining Truth Rising the Study, you can find that on our website. Um that is the sponsor for our very in-depth uh sermon recap portion of this podcast. So go check out Truth Rising the Study. All right, Pastor Dave, let's talk about your sermon. Why don't you give us a quick flyover? And then we got some technical stuff to cover right now.

Dave: 1:09:25

Isaiah 36 to 39 is the hinge of the book of Isaiah. It is the bridge between the two halves of Isaiah. It's a wonderful narrative portion of scripture that is going to center on part of the career of the prophet Isaiah as he interacts with a very famous king, one of the few good kings of Judah, Hezekiah, and how Hezekiah handled some crises in his life, or what I called words of distress. And so there was two occasions in which Hezekiah faced a very personal, private word of distress about his health. And because of that, he turned to the Lord in prayer, and God answered him in a powerful way, and even actually caused the sun to uh have a shadow that went backwards by ten steps, which if you think about that, what that would actually entail is because the earth like rotates, you would have to stop the earth rotation, reverse the earth rotation 10 steps, and then start it back up again, which at the equator, I think the earth goes like at least a thousand miles an hour or something like that. I don't know. But that's a pretty amazing miracle. Uh, God turns back the clock, so to speak, and he does that for Hezekiah in his life. He gives him 15 more years. Yes. And so that's the personal miracle, which is why we talked to Andrew because God still works in powerful ways like that today. But then there was a public miracle that happened later on in his life, even though it's before that textually, it's a flashback when he gets physically healed to an earlier time. And that personal private time prepares him for a public word of distress when the entire 185,000 soldiers, troops of the Assyrian Empire are surrounding the city of Jerusalem, threatening to lay siege upon the city, threatening to have them drink their own urine and eat their own dung. Literally, that's in the Bible. And Hezekiah tears his robes, goes into the temple, spreads out the piece of paper that's the document uh indicating how they're gonna ruthlessly be eliminated by Sennacherib, and goes to the Lord in prayer, and then again, God through the prophet Isaiah gives him a message of hope, a message of deliverance. And miraculously, as they're praying, overnight, heaven moves, and they wake up in the morning, and all of the hundred and eighty-five thousand soldiers of Assyria are laid out dead on the battlefield. It's over, the people of God have nothing more to fear. Sennacherib goes back home to Nineveh, and eventually he actually gets actually killed by his own two sons, and uh his reign is over shortly thereafter. So it's an amazing story of victory, it's a true happy ending for the people of God. Hezekiah has his prayers answered, Jerusalem is spared, and it's a testament to the fact that our God hears our prayers.

Bob: 1:12:15

Pretty cool. Well, that's a wonderful recap of the actual message. All right, so we had a couple uh details that you wanted to get into that we didn't make that didn't make it into the sermon. So why don't we focus our time on that? And uh while you're thinking about how you're gonna cover that, I did mention to you I went to the Penn Museum this last week and I saw all these cool artifacts. So tell us what you saw. I did. Uh they had a whole near uh Eastern Mediterranean section that had the history of Egypt and the Canaanite religions, and there was a whole section on Assyria. Uh were you able to put in these pictures, Tim? There we go. Okay, so here What are we looking at? Okay, right here. These are uh artifacts from uh the from Canaan uh before Israel moved in. And uh the top are uh little idols that are from the Asherah religions. There you go. So these these are the many goddesses, Asherah, and these are mentioned a lot of times in in um you know first and second king, Samuel. Fertility goddess. Fertility gods, and then those so those were the clay goddesses, and then below we had the high gods, and that's uh El the crater, and Baal, you may have heard of him. Uh he's mentioned a lot of times in uh or Baal, however you say his name. Um so so they had artifacts of those gods, and these were things the Israelites often encountered in in the Old Testament, right there. Uh next slide, what else do I got there? All right, here so here you can see artifacts from the Assyrians, Babylonians, the Persian Empire. Uh so these were the nations that were were fighting and and taking different places as you read through Isaiah and as you get into Daniel and and beyond. So obviously we begin Isaiah with the Assyrians, eventually the Babylonians come in and take Israel into captivity. That that's getting into like Jeremiah and uh the end of uh 2 Kings. Um and then Persia, uh the Medo-Persian Empire, takes power in the book of Daniel. Um and so there's a uh uh a placard in this area that talks about how this area of the world was just all these nations um uh continuing to change hands. It was the crossroads of conflict, they called it. And of course, after the Medo-Persian Empire, uh we had Alexander the Great uh came in and took over the Greek Empire. That's the end of the book of Daniel, and then of course, very famously, that was followed by the Roman Empire, which uh took over the great fourth beast um and ruled for many, many, many, many years. Um what do I have next? Okay, this this there was a whole section to the Assyrian Empire, and this was um uh a rock. I forgot to actually read what this artifact was, but you can see there at the top, this is to commemorate the mighty king of the universe, the king of Assyria. And so some artifacts from uh Senecarib's days and his uh his follow his people after that. Um is the interactive map there on the next one? Yes. Okay, so here, this is what I found was really cool. If you actually go, they had this interactive map, and this is showing you how the uh um look at it grow. This is the Egyptian Empire growing, and this is how far they went, right? So this is like kind of, you know, you got during the day of Moses and uh Joseph, and then they're eventually conquered, they're moving back and back and back, and now the Assyrians come in um afterwards. They're they're next. Oh, yeah, I'm commenting on this right here. But here's the growth of the Assyrian Empire, the first world powers. Assyria is gonna take over, they're gonna grow. Yep, neo-Assyrians, they're growing, they're growing, they're growing. Here we go. We're coming into Isaiah's day. As they're moving, see, they're making their way down there. Eventually they come to the city.

Dave: 1:15:52

There's Hezekiah, right there.

Bob: 1:15:53

Hezekiah, he stops them, right? And then, but eventually it goes down and he takes over Egypt and judgment's coming upon them. But then after Assyria, Babylon comes up, and Babylon comes over and eventually eventually conquers Israel, takes them into captivity after that, right? All the empires come, and then the Meadow Persians come in and defeat the Babylonians. That's the book of Daniel, right there. And look at how big Meadow Persia is. Man, they're just taking over. And that eventually the Greek Empire comes in, Alexander the Great. See how far Meadow Persia goes? Um, that's a that's a large empire, but then Alexander the Great pushes them back. Um, this will be the end of the book of Daniel. Alexander's gonna come here pretty soon. Uh man, that that Persian, let's see how far the Persian, they just keep getting bigger and bigger and bigger, which, you know, when you read about that in the book of Daniel, it sort of makes sense now about how these beasts go. Alright, here we go. Greco-Roman. So that's Alexander the Great comes, and eventually the Roman Empire, the biggest of them all, will come in. And um yep. Oh, this I for I forgot about the Celeuses. They they happen before.

Dave: 1:17:05

Um, Alexander divides it between his four generals. That's right, that's a good and then uh and then we finish off with the Romans.

Bob: 1:17:16

It's coming, it's coming. But look at how big the Roman Empire is here in just a second.

unknown: 1:17:26

Yeah.

Bob: 1:17:26

We should have sped it up to like two times speed, but here comes here comes the Romans. Yeah, there it is, Roman Empire. They're just gonna keep spreading and spreading and spreading and spreading. So this is pretty amazing. That was like 1500 years of history right there as we're going through it. Look at how look at how far the Roman Empire goes. Boom, boom. Eventually they're gonna keep going over. All the way up into England, Roman Empire spread. Boom, boom, boom. That's a whole lot of biblical history right here, Pastor Dave. So this is, you know, during the time of Christ and the and the early church was contending with the Roman Empire as it spread. And um Yeah, so there we go. So that's pretty cool. So that was still the stuff down at the uh at the Penn Museum in Philadelphia. Fascinating. And there was a whole Roman section, there was a whole uh um you know, uh a whole other history stuff you can get into. So I I encourage you to go check it out. It's pretty cool.

Dave: 1:18:29

How often do you as a man think about the Roman Empire?

Bob: 1:18:34

Not as much as other men, but I do consider it every once in a while.

Dave: 1:18:38

Tim, Noah, is it every seven minutes for you guys? Or apparently not as much as I'm supposed to.

Bob: 1:18:44

Yeah, we think more about the Lord of the Rings empires. That's true, that's true. Yes, Salron. All right, so you had archaeological stuff to mention in your uh in your episode here.

Dave: 1:18:55

Okay. So what we did was fast forward and we moved past a pretty significant chunk of scripture, and I thought we'd spend a little bit of time on the podcast explaining what we missed. All right. So in Isaiah, there's different sections. The first section is chapters one through twelve, and we talked about what that is. It's God's glory through salvation, in salvation through judgment. And then in section two, you covered that last week, which was God ruling the nations, and there was all of these judgments uh that are pronounced upon the nations, and that climaxes in a pretty significant destruction of the city of man uh in chapters 24, moving into chapter 25, and even chapter 26 is part of that too, where God brings in his future kingdom, the mountain, he swallows up death, and everything is all better. Chapter 27 has God reminding them he's going to defeat evil. He symbolizes evil as Leviathan, and then he restores his vineyard Israel. And then we have the third section of Isaiah, which is chapter 28 through 35. And I have a chart for this, Tim, so if you go to that slide, this is the third major section of Isaiah, and really it's all about in whom will you place your trust. And there's this human scheming going on that's contrasted with God's plan. And what we have in Isaiah 28 to 35 are a series of sermons that Isaiah preaches, six sermons actually, and they all begin with the word woe, or sometimes in Hebrew it's translated as ah. And so these six sermons kind of tell this story. And remember, the context of this section, I mentioned this in the sermon, was Judah was under military threat from Assyria, and Assyria was no longer helpful to them. It became this tyrant, and they needed help, and they were looking to other sources of support to save them from Assyria. So in chapter 28, Isaiah writes to the north. This is the one of the only times in Isaiah that he actually addresses his um uh sermon to the north, but he's actually writing to the south. He's just uh doing that in an interesting literary way, and he says, Assyria, you know, rips through the north like a hailstorm, Isaiah 28, 2. And in the first half of Isaiah 28, we meet some leaders that are drunk, and um these leaders of the north are indulging themselves, they are not able to be good leaders, and uh they are just abusing substance, and uh because of that, one of the uh consequences is the city of Samaria falls, and that's considered a wreath. There's two wreaths here. The first wreath is Samaria that gets trampled, and those leaders don't want to hear the prophetic word, they don't want to listen to Isaiah the prophet, and uh there's a passage in Isaiah 28 that I think I have a slide for Tim that has them kind of uh mocking and putting uh putting resentment towards the prophets for which verse their um I think it's verses nine through thirteen where they show contempt for the prophet.

Tim: 1:22:11

Isaiah twenty-eight. Yeah. Nine through thirteen. Okay.

Dave: 1:22:16

Yeah. Or nine and ten is good. So it says this to whom will he teach knowledge, and to whom will he explain the message? Those who are weaned from the milk, those taken from the breast. What's going on there is the people from the north are making fun of Isaiah the prophet, saying, Isaiah is talking to us as if we need to be taught, as if we're little kids. And they don't like being talked to like they're little kids. They feel like Isaiah is insulting their intelligence, and then in verse 10 it says, For it is precept upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here little, there, little. And what they mean by that is that um Isaiah is talking down to them as if they're babies, and it's almost like the Hebrew equivalent of saying, blah, blah, blah. We don't want to listen to you, Isaiah the prophet. And as a result of them not listening to God through the prophet Isaiah, God is gonna send a foreign nation to them that they're gonna have to listen to in a foreign tongue. And that's the next section, verses 11 through 13. So as a consequence, God says, All right, you don't want to listen to Isaiah, then here's what you're gonna get. For by people of strange lips and with a foreign tongue, the Lord will speak to his people, to whom he has said, The this is rest, give rest to the weary, and this is repose, yet they would not hear. And the word of the Lord will be to them. And then he quotes the same thing, precept upon precept. In other words, what he's saying is, if you don't want to hear blah, blah, blah from Isaiah, then you're gonna have to have to hear blah blah blah from the king of Assyria, who's gonna come and who's going to wreak havoc upon you. And God is gonna bring this judgment upon them as a purification for his people. And the interesting word that he uses in the next verse, Isaiah 28, 21, is the word strange. And I wanted to point this out. Uh, it says, For the Lord will rise up as on Mount Perazim, as in the valley of Gibeon, he will be roused to do his deeds, strange is his deed, and to work his work, alien is his work. So when God brings judgment or discipline upon his people, it's called in the book of Isaiah, his strange work, meaning this is not the work that God normally does. His work of discipline or his work of judgment or his work of bringing consequence is his strange work. It's not the most natural thing for God to do. Like as a father, when you have to bring discipline to your children, it's not ideal. You don't want to do this. You have to do it because you're their dad, but it's not something that gives you a whole lot of pleasure. You don't really do it from your heart, so to speak. And so God brings about his strange work of discipline upon his people. Just like it says in the New Testament, you know, Hebrews chapter 12, God disciplines us. No discipline feels pleasant, but it's painful at the time. So that's God's strange work of discipline. And he's going to demolish them, but he's only going to do that so he can build something new on top of it. He's going to plow the field so that he can plant new seed. And he does that in a way that's gracious, in a way that's proportional, in a way that we can handle, and in a way that will help us to grow. Uh, Charles Spurgeon has a great quote about this. He says, God gives us love without measure, but chastisement in measure. Every stroke is counted. It is the measure of wisdom, the measure of sympathy, the measure of love by which our discipline is regulated. Far be it from us to rebel against appointments so divine. So, in other words, when God disciplines us, he never gives us more than we can be able to bear when he's doing that. And it's intentional in order to refine us. But as God tears something down, in the midst of it, God promises to build on something that's solid that will never be torn down. And that's the next verse I have for you in Isaiah 28, where he says this, Therefore, thus says the Lord God, behold, I am the one who has laid as a foundation in Zion a stone, a tested stone, a precious cornerstone of a sure foundation. Whoever believes will not be in haste, or whoever believes will not be in anxiety or in panic or will not fear. So there's this destruction, but then underneath of it, God is gonna keep a foundation there that's a precious cornerstone that God's gonna rebuild on top of. And we know in the New Testament, because 1 Peter chapter 2 actually quotes this, that the ultimate fulfillment of this precious cornerstone is Jesus. That uh Christ is the thing that we can build our lives on top of, that he is the thing that doesn't get destroyed, that he's the thing that will never fail us, that we can rest on. He's our firm foundation. That's where that comes from in the book of Isaiah, which I think is interesting. So that's kind of chapter 28 and 29. There's some more to it. Um, then there's this false solution that they're gonna depend on Egypt and they're gonna look to you know foreign powers to help them. Um, and God doesn't think this is a good idea, Isaiah doesn't think this is a good idea, and rebukes them for what they're doing and tells them to trust in him instead. And in chapter 31, verse 6, he has this verse where God says, Return, you Israelites, to the one that you have so greatly revolted against. Like you've rebelled against me, I want you to return back to me. Um, don't trust in Egypt, trust in me instead, and come to me as your divine solution, not Egypt, don't trust in Egypt. And then there's this prophecy at the end of this section that a divine king will come and he will reign in righteousness, and he will uh pour he will be one who pours out his spirit upon his people. And then this is the famous verse that we have that uh the founders of America used to construct our government, where when I God says in Isaiah chapter 33 that the Lord one day will be our judge, he will be our lawgiver, and he will be our king, and God will save us in this way. So when the founders of America set up the three parts of the government, the separate yet co-equal branches of government, the executive branch, the legislative branch, and the judicial branch, this is one of the verses that was a foundation for the reason why we set up our government that way, because the Lord is our judge and he's also our lawgiver and he's also our king. That is where that verse is found in Isaiah chapter 33, and it's a promise about how God will one day rule his people with good government. And so we wanted to model our government after the government that God will bring. In chapter 34, we have the final judgment of God that brings a lot of gruesome imagery as he uh brings judgment to the nations. He actually says in here the same thing it says in Revelation that the smoke of their torment will go up forever and ever in chapter 34. Uh, and so God is gonna bring um, again, similar to chapter 24 in the message that you brought a couple weeks ago, judgment upon the world. And right here, God is putting the world on notice that he will not tolerate our insurrection forever. Chapter 34, verse 4 has a verse that we all sing about when we sing the song It Is Well. It says, the sky will be rolled up like a scroll. That's where that verse comes from. Isaiah chapter 34, verse 4, and it's a picture of total destruction. And then in chapter 35, it's a wonderful picture of victory and joy and the promised new creation, where there's the redeemed are there, the desert is blooming again, God will renew his creation, the mute will be able to talk, the blind will see, the deaf will hear, the lame will leap like a deer, the tongue of the mute will sing for joy, and God will gather his people to come home. So that last chapter, chapter 35, is like light breaking forth into a very dark place where God brings about his salvation. And so that's the final vision there, uh, where God um cleans everything up and creates a highway back to Zion, the highway of hope. Holiness. That's where we get that phrase, the highway of holiness. And that's our future, our promised hope from God. So that's Isaiah 28 to 35. And it kind of sets up where we were going. By the time we reach chapter 36, it's like, okay, are these people going to trust in God or or not? This is the test. And so Isaiah 36 to 38 is like the teasing out of that test. Are you going to listen or not? And the narrative tells us what happened. So that's what we missed in the sermon yesterday. So thanks for giving me some time to talk about that.

Bob: 1:30:33

Well, very cool. Well, uh, I think between Andrew's testimony and that, people have a pretty full picture of what happened at the end of Isaiah. I think so. All right. This upcoming week we're going to be jumping into Isaiah chapter 40, perhaps uh one of the most famous. Well, Isaiah's got a lot of famous chapters, but this is hard to pick what's the most famous. This is a very famous chapter. Everywhere you turn, there's a famous chapter. I know I keep saying that every week. Isaiah 6. Uh, but anyway, um, Isaiah 40, the eagle's wings, and uh God's gonna raise us up. Do you not know? Have you not heard the Lord is the everlasting God? Comfort, comfort, my people. So we're gonna have some comfort this week after there was some destruction last week, and I hear about that. Excellent. All right. Last sponsor for our show today is the Fresh Wave. And uh I'm gonna let Tim talk about the Fresh Wave because he's pretty fired up over there.

Tim: 1:31:24

Yeah, I'll talk about the Fresh Wave. So, Fresh Wave, for those of you who may be familiar with it, is our chunk right in the camera. Is our is our youth is our youth podcast um that we that we have here. Um and it's taking a break for a little bit uh as we've been rethinking how do we want to format it. So we're gonna take away, it's it's less it's gonna be less of a podcast, you feel. We're still gonna have people at the desk, uh, but it's gonna be more like two-minute um commentaries and and Bible teachings from um for geared for youth. So if you're a parent that has a has a youth um in your household, we we recommend that you tune have ask them, see if they want to tune in once a week. Uh the first episode will go out on Thursday. Uh just rethinking how we want to re reach um the youth on our YouTube channel. So we're looking forward to that.

Bob: 1:32:12

Alright, there we go. Theology sprint, and then we're out of here.

Tim: 1:32:16

Noah has a good one.

Noah: 1:32:18

Alright. So this one's a short one, but it is a good one. So this week's theology sprint question is how do we know that Jesus and his first disciples were not a cult?

Bob: 1:32:32

How do we know Jesus and his first disciples were not a cult?

Dave: 1:32:38

A cult is defined in a very specific way, and um it's usually centered around one particular um person that has access to all the information, the knowledge, the secret truth, and everybody has to get their information through that one person. It's like a log jam, right? Um Christianity is like the opposite of that. So we have a faith that has so many witnesses to what is true and what is real and what has happened in in history, and uh the Christian faith is a faith with evidence, it's not a faith where we have to trust some secret cult leader who has some secret message from God. Um, and I think we know that Christianity is not a cult because it doesn't fit the standard definitions of a cult. Usually it's surrounded by one rather narcissistic leader who um is asking um its followers to sacrifice in some way for themselves, but Jesus is the opposite. He's willing to sacrifice himself for his for his followers. Um cults also have some uh characteristics like they discourage critical thinking. Um they just want you to kind of trust without evidence, trust and you know, just don't even uh question what you've heard. They demand absolute loyalty, they never allow you to like do research or uh you know look into this yourself. You just kind of gotta, you know, trust the whoever's in charge. Um, it's very isolating. Cults are isolating, so you're not allowed to leave. Uh you know, if you leave, if you leave, you're shunned. Yeah, you're shunned. You're very discouraged from ever leaving. Um, Christianity is not like that. It's like there's the door. If you don't we don't force you to stay, we don't force you to come. Um it's there's a free will thing here. Uh cults are very manipulative, they're very fear-based, they're very shame-based. Um, and then cults create a certain kind of dependency. And so we don't we don't really function like a cult in many different ways. So there's sociological issues that make us distinct from a cult. But I think theologically, you know, I the whole redemptive history tells a very different story that God has been progressively revealing himself over thousands of years through the heroes of the faith, all the way back through the patriarchs and culminating in his son, that are very different from let's say Ron Hubbard, who, you know, comes up with Scientology himself, heaven's gate guy. Yeah. This is like very limited. One person has this information, they have this vision, or that they have this uh Christianity is not like that. It's it's a wonderful religion because you have like 40 different authors, uh, three different continents, you have three different languages, you have all of these witnesses to the one true God telling this one story yet without contradiction, and uh it all comes together in in amazing ways.

Bob: 1:35:36

So well, like uh like Joe Rogan said, I think I think something's going on there.

Dave: 1:35:41

Yeah. Yeah. So it's different sociologically. It's different psychologically, it's different theologically than a cult. Um I don't know. Those are some some ways we're distinct. Seems good.

Noah: 1:35:53

Am I getting anywhere with what you're asking? No, that's great. I did have another question that's not part of the theology spirit, but it's related to that. Would you guys classify Mormonism as a cult, or would you just consider it a completely different religion?

Bob: 1:36:06

Well, some of the things that Dave was describing would would um fit Mormonism in the sense that uh Joseph Smith claimed to have the secret knowledge. There was a book that only he could read. Um so I think there's some cultic elements uh as part of it.

Dave: 1:36:22

Um small group centered around very charismatic one leader. Um yeah, I mean it's very offensive to Mormons to have us refer to them as a cult, but most of the time in terms of classic definitions of Christianity, like there's a very famous book by Walter Martin called Christianity and the Cults. Mormonism's in there, um, where they take a certain truth about Christianity in the person of Jesus, and then they completely twist it so that it's like a different Jesus by the time you get done with it. Jesus is now the devil's brother, and he's not one with the Father. He's someone who became a God, just like we can become a God, and God the Father lives on a planet that's circled by a star named Kolob, and one day we can get our own planets as long as we behave in a certain way. And all of this was uh written on gold tablets with hieroglyphics in New York.

Bob: 1:37:22

And they were in a magic hat that he had to look into and only he could read it.

Dave: 1:37:25

Was there a hat? I don't remember that, but yeah.

Bob: 1:37:28

He was a treasure hunter and he was going out looking for it.

Dave: 1:37:30

And then but nobody ever found the gold tablets.

Bob: 1:37:33

And then he had to find another hat yet.

Dave: 1:37:36

And then there was an angel Moroni that appeared to him and uh revealed these things.

Bob: 1:37:41

And here here, you know, and everything you've got ancient Jews that traveled across the Atlantic Ocean and got to you know Mexico, and that's where how they got to the Americas.

Dave: 1:37:51

Yeah. It's so like you know, at Brigham Young University, the classic Mormon school, um, you're not gonna find a book like this that like helps you understand the reliability of the Book of Mormon because it talks about certain animals and certain jewelry and certain things that were supposedly here in the Americas back 2,000 years ago that weren't actually here. There really is no archaeological evidence for the stuff that Mormonism says happened here in the Americas. It's just all like, just trust us, it happened. So I've actually heard that they have trouble keeping the chair of archaeology at the at that school because there's not a whole lot to teach about it.

Bob: 1:38:28

Except for the actual biblical stuff that is true. Yeah. Um I I've often described Mormonism as being a cross between uh science fiction and Catholicism, uh, in the sense that how they view salvation and justification is similar to how Catholics mix up uh the placement of justification and sanctification, and then of course all the uh the science stuff when it comes to the planet and getting your own planet and things like that that you mentioned.

Dave: 1:38:54

So there is another weird thing with polygamy.

Bob: 1:38:58

Uh and there's well, yeah, and of course there was all these rules that benefited, you know, men and all that.

Dave: 1:39:04

Yeah.

Bob: 1:39:06

So Mormons were chased across the country, which is why they wound up in Utah. So that was not a not a great thing, but yeah.

Dave: 1:39:13

There was a lot of weird things that happened in the 1800s. Like a lot of cults like kind of sprouted up and were birthed during the mid-1800s, specifically in America. Uh so I would say Mormonism is is one of them. And it actually has like a lot of similarities to Islam. So you have this angel that visits Muhammad, yeah, and everything you've heard before about Christianity has been corrupted, all that stuff. You can't really trust that. Uh now you just have to trust us. We've got the real story over here. And it's like, well, you know, so maybe the angel were visited by some spiritual force. Or a demon. Yeah. Could there be some kind of evil, you know, source behind this um poor theology? So I would classify it as a cult. Not everybody would see it that way. So yeah, good question.

Bob: 1:40:02

All right. I think we've uh overstayed our welcome today. So that that'll be the end of that. Uh, thanks so much for joining us from behind the pulpit. We hope to see you next week. Isaiah 40, and uh we're out of the